What was it like in the 60's and 70's?

This was 60s in Yugoslavia, the country where I was born.

Edited by Svetonio - November 19 2013 at 09:17

Dean wrote: TODDLER wrote: Dean wrote: Any sceptic who disregards the experiences you relate as tall-tales would be wrong because the events you have described most certainly happened: Patrick Michael Newell, the kid who was bound with duct tape and drowned in a pond by two of his friends in 1971 really did drown in a pond in what was described at the time as "an assisted suicide" and as "a Satanic Ritual". That's evidence and a sceptic would never disregard evidence.   Richard Williams who assisted in the drowning told police that Michael belonged to a Satan worshippers sect and that he was merely introduced to his ideas and was not a member himself. He lived up the street from me and Michael used to tutor many of us in school. In several newspaper articles during that time, it was stated that police had confiscated evidence proving that there were 50 members present on the night Michael was murdered. That's why so many witnesses were questioned. There was evidence in Michael's room which led police to believe that this so called sect had members hiding in plainsight. They claimed the members belonged to the Chesnut Assembly of God church. There was no physical evidence on Michael's body and since the 2 boys admitted to the crime, everything else was disregarded as circumstantial evidence. Although police investigated for 2 years to prove otherwise. A Miami newspaper read that Pastor Harry Snook deprogrammed 90 teenage devil worshippers in 71'. He was the pastor of the Chestnut Assembly. Sorry, you've confused me: Are you saying that members of the Chestnut Assembly of God were behind this secret satanic cult and their pastor deprogrammed 90 teenage devil worshippers...?   Now my sceptic ears prick-up. When investigations like this start chasing their own tail I get curious, was/is this church part of the charismatic movement? Cults are created on fear and by spreading fear - in order to defeat a demon you have to first create one - satan is a creation of the christian religion. In the 70s I had direct contact with a christian commune affiliated with the charismatic movement and know how they operate - there was no physical abuse but a lot of psychological "pressure". I don't understand why that differs from my experience. Why there was no physical abuse during your observation.   I am not that informative on the charismatic movement. I did attend the church in a group called the Royal Rangers which was a poor man's boy scouts. I believe it was a Pentecostal church. Ladies in long dresses dancing and speaking in tongues. Very common in Vineland N.J. to this day..however..during this particular time after the Satan cult killing , police discovered literature dealing with Michael Newell's Satan cult and a diary. This was revealed to me by a retired officer one afternoon , in his house, and on a day when I interviewed several retired officers who had worked for 2 years on the case. I had been overly curious for years as to how they linked members of the church to Michael's death. The officers stated that there was something in the diary , but said they couldn't and wouldn't reveal specifically what it was...that directly pointed to those people. They were also nervous about the possibility of a book being released on the case and asked me not to use their real names. I was told by 2 officers that a 70 year old man had access to the church basement with a key. They further stated that he was a high priest and along with members gave service to the Devil in the evenings. When I inquired about the pastor ..Harry Snook...the officers stated that he had no clue these people were worshipping Satan or that they were part of the church. As a result he took it upon himself to convert the 2 perpetrators when they served time in Yardville prison ..which was a total of 4 or 5 years. Both of them returned to Satan worship in 1978..which that info was provided by one of the perpetrators wives in a testimony written around the story of how she met him and converted him to Christianity. Williams committed suicide. Pastor Snook drove to Yardville prison to visit the 2 boys and according to newspapers had deprogrammed a total of 90 devil worshippers in Vineland. In the meantime, police hammered down on Lilith Sinclair who they claimed had revolted against the Church of Satan, moved to the east coast, and had formed this so called pre- "Temple of Set"...which! according to most publications, had not actually offically formed until she married Michael Aquino in 1972 and formed it then.      But the police told me that was incorrect and that her people were already in Vineland by 71'. These were the members I met at age 17 when I worked for the "Inn on the Mall" in 1974. The police informed me that the ritual had been attempted several times after the tragic death of Michael Newell. They claimed that the ritual was forbidden by the Church of Satan and that being the reason why they revolted against the Church of Satan and for whatever reason..moved to Vineland. Perhaps it was a segment of Sinclair's group, but nevertheless they went after Sinclair. This info used to be available on a few Christian websites back in 2004. The ritual derives from the works of Colin De Plancey and is a Judeo Christian concept. Across town..the 3rd generation Watchtower society were into the same concepts..yet differed because they were channeling demons through a young girl and lowering her into a snake pit of dead snakes. She is now married to a federal officer and has moved on with her life since her escape from the family. These rituals associated with demonology were common in Vineland during the 70's. My good friend Sharon Carter was stabbed to death by her husband a few years ago. Her husband was in and out of the mental hospital frequently. He used to drive the 2 perpetrators around town and he knew the members of the cult. I suspect he may have been a member as well. Sharon used to call me and we had long discussions about the members, the sect, a few years before she was murdered in Vineland. Suicide with assitance was put in motion by a lawyer defending the perpetrators. The 2 boys confessed to the crime showing no remorse ..but I and a bunch of friends knew there were close to 50 people there that night...because..we often listened to the chanting and screaming at Menantico and other wooded sections in Vineland. It was evident to most kids in my age group and it was hinted through the publications..but it couldn't be proven. But we knew..because we grew up there. Simple as that and of course no one in their right mind is going to believe any of it.

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Edited by TODDLER - October 18 2013 at 11:31

presdoug wrote: ^hey, Johnny, have you ever heard the seventies jazz-rock/krautrock band Dzyan? They are outasite!

Thank you Doug! I am going to check this band out. I've never heard of them..

Prog_Traveller wrote: [Progressive Rock stations like WXPN for example.] XPN a progressive rock station? Hey, that's a good one. Back in the day they had a prog program called diaspera but I don't think it was ever a progressive rock station at least not the way we understand prog rock these days. Maybe it was a progressive station that played rock. These days they throw us prog fans a bone on the first weekend of the new year with a prog marathon but that's about it. It's the only time during the year you'll hear "obscure" prog bands on there like Van der Graaf Generator, Caravan, Gentle Giant, Camel, Strawbs or whoever but it's only seventies stuff they play.

[Progressive Rock stations like WXPN for example.]

XPN a progressive rock station? Hey, that's a good one. Back in the day they had a prog program called diaspera but I don't think it was ever a progressive rock station at least not the way we understand prog rock these days. Maybe it was a progressive station that played rock. These days they throw us prog fans a bone on the first weekend of the new year with a prog marathon but that's about it. It's the only time during the year you'll hear "obscure" prog bands on there like Van der Graaf Generator, Caravan, Gentle Giant, Camel, Strawbs or whoever but it's only seventies stuff they play.


Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 18 2013 at 00:53

TODDLER wrote: The.Crimson.King wrote: moshkito wrote: TODDLER wrote: ... In the early 70's..You were surrounded by great music! The first week Jethro Tull's Aqualung was released, friends gathered together..listening to the album, passing the cover around, and discussing the music and lyrics. This is basically what occured 24/7 with most kids. It was a "sit down". Gather around the banquet table for hours listening to albums....  This had started much earlier for me, with Woodstock, the Doors, Creedence (Foreign Son!), and Janis and Jimi. Even The Beatles earlier. Actually, even Fairport Convention! My first experience of this was sitting with friends in 1970, Beatles albums spread all over the table in front of us while I showed everyone the Paul is Dead clues  I remember someone pulling out the poster inside the White Album and pointing out a photo of a guy that looked  like Paul, but according to friends wasn't..and a replacement for Paul. lol! This was a rumour spreading up and down the east coast of the U.S.  I don't know if it was a rumour that went cross country, but it surely seemed quite foolish at the time.

The.Crimson.King wrote: moshkito wrote: TODDLER wrote: ... In the early 70's..You were surrounded by great music! The first week Jethro Tull's Aqualung was released, friends gathered together..listening to the album, passing the cover around, and discussing the music and lyrics. This is basically what occured 24/7 with most kids. It was a "sit down". Gather around the banquet table for hours listening to albums....  This had started much earlier for me, with Woodstock, the Doors, Creedence (Foreign Son!), and Janis and Jimi. Even The Beatles earlier. Actually, even Fairport Convention! My first experience of this was sitting with friends in 1970, Beatles albums spread all over the table in front of us while I showed everyone the Paul is Dead clues

I am familiar with the first two Family albums which I think are both great especially "Music from a doll's house" which I consider to be a true classic. I'm not sure which song on that album you were referring to unless maybe it's the one with the screechy sound towards the end. I always thought that was a bit annoying but it doesn't really ruin the album for me.

Anyway, I think Family were mainly a British phenomena. They are even to this day barely known in the US and not even that widely known in prog circles. I think of them more as an art rock band(or proto prog) but like the Moody Blues they had an influence on later prog bands. How big was their influence? It's hard to say. I know that Jon Anderson mentioned them as a band that YES strived to become(as well as King Crimson). Jon said something like "as long as we can become as well known as Family we'll be happy(in regards to the early days of YES).

Let's also not forget to mention Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention. Some of that stuff was ahead of the curve and pretty daring musically and lyrically. I know Frank isn't often thought of as being strictly prog and in all fairness he wasn't(he was more than that)but a lot of his stuff(with and without MOI)was certainly very progressive.


Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 17 2013 at 13:55

Interesting how the band Family were touring in the late 60's prior to the 1968 release of Music In A Doll's House because that opens up a whole new point of view. Take into account that if they were in fact performing a lot of their oddball compositions in 66' and 67',  then it's very possible they may have influenced musicians in the audience who formed Progressive Rock bands in 69' or 70' that became more internationally known than Family. The opening track of Music In A Doll's House is an obvious Genesis sound and style. One track in particular titled "Never Like This" written by Dave Mason is truly reminiscent of the early David Bowie. Other tracks are reminiscent of sections of music on Nursery Crime. There is another track which I fail to recall it's title, but it features violin surrounded by a vamping chord progression very reminiscent of Hawkwind's early style. It might be a freak of nature or something unexplainable, but the album certainly contains musical structures used by the early 70's Progressive Rock bands. Peter Gabriel was influenced by Roger Chapman vocal style...however the instrumentation like the style of the early Genesis. I've always been curious to know if any of the 70's Prog musicians openly admitted that Family were an influence or was this all very non intended?

Edited by TODDLER - October 17 2013 at 13:46

TODDLER wrote: Prog_Traveller wrote: I was born in 70 so I'm a bit too young to talk about this from a first hand experience. Just about the only rock I knew about in the seventies was Peter Frampton, The Beatles and Elton John. LOL. Also, whatever else was on the radio or my parents played which wasn't a lot. My dad was mostly into jazz. As far as prog goes there wasn't much of it in the sixties despite what people say. True, I wasn't there but it's just a feeling I have. At least in the US I don't think there was any real prog scene in the sixties especially since the album that people say started prog(or at least made people notice it in a major way)was released in October 1969. It was widely known to be "Art Rock" in the 60's. The Moody Blues, Family, Procol Harum, The Nice..but it hadn't developed into that definition people later knew as Prog. It wasn't really a Prog scene. It was just about people listening to Art Rock. The Jefferson Airplane released Crown of Creation which featured the song "Lather" . The song creates an atmosphere/style of Syd Barrett's writing. Piper At the Gates of Dawn influenced bands to write differently and some of the ideas for that album were expanded upon in the progressive rock music of the 70's. The Moody Blues influenced Barclay James Harvest and Family influenced Genesis. The ideas and the sounds were later transformed into more complex ..progressive composition.

I see what you're saying. I have heard that the Moody Blues also influenced King Crimson. As for Genesis I think heard that Family and Fairport Convention were influences on them but their biggest influence was probably King Crimson. Apparently Genesis were on the verge of breaking up in the summer of 1969. They decided to retreat to a cottage before they made that decision just to see what would happen. Then bam all of a sudden "In the Court of the Crimson King" was released and it fired them up and motivated them to move on and the result was Trespass. Would Genesis have been as prog without that album? Who knows for sure. Was there prog before ITCOTCK? Well the term often used is "proto prog" which describes some of the bands you mentioned as well as the many English groups such as Cressida, Spring, Beggar's Opera, Gracious etc. There was also a band from the US called Touch who put out an album before KC's first that many feel strongly hinted at prog with long epic songs. Apparently most of the shorter pieces are more in the psych direction though. Crimson's first was certainly the band that officially started the prog genre though in part because it got a lot of attention. Prog wouldn't be the same without it. Before them the Nice might be the closest contender to a real prog band (imo).

Art rock is a good term to use. However, a band can be art rock and not prog but since art rock is a more general term all prog is art rock. I think for the sixties "proto prog" is a more applicable term though especially since art rock has come to be known for 70's bands like Bebop Deluxe, 10 CC, Supertramp, and some of the artists associated with glam like David Bowie or Roxy Music.


Edited by Prog_Traveller - October 17 2013 at 13:04