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Joined: January 04 2007
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Topic: You have to Really listen to King Crimson Posted: March 10 2010 at 20:00
Certif1ed wrote:
I have to disagree with this - Genesis' "The Musical Box" did not "grab me" on first hearing. I thought it was nonsense - what was all that stuff with nursery rhymes in? Why didn't it just ROCK? Now, the more I listen to it intently, the more enjoyment I get out of it - 30 years on and it still delivers more stuff every time.
King Crimson are like that too.
It's amazing, for example, how few people LISTEN to "MoonChild", which is frankly one of the most amazing things anybody has ever written in the whole canon of music.
In my humble opinion...
Valid statement ... I remember my roomate playing Tangerine Dream that very first time (Mysterious Semblance at the Strand of Nightmares) ... and it took some ear tuning, but I have not really had any issues with weird, bizarre and off the wall stuff and even at that time I had already heard Frank Zappa and Maggot Brain ... so weird stuff was not an issue ...
Musical Box, to my literary mind and house I came from (Portuguese, Brazilian and Spanish literature over 40k books!!!!!! ... was a minor literary effort ... specially when compared to "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" ... but I will accept that the design of "The Musical Box" made it easier for Genesis to showcase its talents ... and costumes that Peter Gabriel made use of. So, in a way, it helped define and promote their work, and it DID get everyone's attention ... and yes .. it deserved to!
On the same night I heard Genesis for the first time, btw ... Selling England by the Pound ... and it was an astonishing evening to say the least!
But in general, listening to things is not an issue and my favorites believe or not, these days I call "the noise and noises" ... Guy Guden in his Space Pirate Radio used to do these amazing collages with sound, music, effects, everything and the kitchen sink, cheese and miracle whip ... and after getting used to hearing those things ... coming back down to "composed" music is actually a come down ... it's just not as much fun ... and it makes today's DJ's sound like cheapies that can only setup a beat ... in lieu of music! I tend to call it "geek'ry" and "wannabe musicians" ... that couldn't survive three notes without a beat, or a single silence!
I think that it has to do with your tolerance for different experiences ... and Guy used to be big on "xenophobia" and I can certify that his show was 100% the other way! ... in every way possible!
Edited by moshkito - March 13 2010 at 13:12
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 19:31
MAVIII wrote:
I think you may be right, I do "hint" that a bit in my rant. But yes "something" about this music HITS you . . . but then you "listen" to what hit your personal instincts, the sound, to try to understand the "why" - it does? Thats what attracted me to KC and GG and who it got me ready for in my discoveries to come. ...
I have very few things in my collection that I am attracted to but have no idea why ... and the only reason I can tell you that is that when I close my eyes I see pictures and movies and a whole lot of other things ... and that is what "brings the music home" for me ... but I will admit that it took me a few years to get that ... I can easily fall into that stoned stupor when I was enjoying Echos and Space Ritual and Tales of Topographic Oceans ... and love the music to death ... and not care what the heck it means ... however, that is,and was, only a portion of its strength and validity ... but sometimes the rest is like a novel that you have to read again ... and then you go ... Now I get it! ... and it is an individual experience for each and everyone of us!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: April 08 2004
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 09:29
uduwudu wrote:
Stairway? Really? IMHO the whole thing is sublime.
Indeed - "IMO" is the key here.
"Stairway" as a song is OK - goes on a bit, as the verses are all so remarkably similar - but the whole song builds in an overt way towards the solo - there's no point pretending that it's not the high point, because it obviously is.
uduwudu wrote:
Wishbone Ash? Well Up to Argus is fine for me.
The point really is that the instrumentals are the high points - especially on Argus.
uduwudu wrote:
Camel are best instrumentally (Snow Goose.) Latimer is quite a good singer for a guitarist. Lok at how awful say Hackett and Howe are at singing. Masterful guitarists but singers?
Not wishing to make comparisons really - I think Latimer is a fairly poor singer, as are the rest of the band. I wasn't even keen when Richard Sinclair took the mike - I felt his voice didn't fit the band.
But the instrumental sections are wonders of the musical world!
uduwudu wrote:
Hotel Californina does have that excellent guitar section (two guitars that can be arranged for one. It is accompanied by the same chord sequence as per the vocal part of the song. Anyway alot of these are set up so the lead instrumentalist can climax the piece. They're not better just expanded. of course one can like the instrumental section more than the vocal, that's fair.
There is that aspect, but then there's the feeling that the vocal sections are merely a prelude to the instrumentals, which are the true raison d'etre for some songs.
I couldn't really say the same for Stargazer, for example, where Dio shines as much as Blackmore.
These are just illustrations, that's all - MoonChild is in a completely different league - I can't immediately thing of another song like it from that point of view. The function of the instrumental is radically different to almost anything else, and is undoubtedly the highpoint, in comparison to which the song feels almost functional.
The big difference here is that the moment of "tension" isn't a single one that's built up to, but a continual 5 or so minute one that shifts and changes, re-stating the lyrical content.
You could counter-argue this that there is a single high point - that subtle cadence that establishes the major key, that co-incides with the sun breaking through part of the lyrics with uncanny form that more than suggests it is beyond co-incidence.
^Actually, the song part is average to mildly interesting, in my opinion.
It's the instrumental passage that is so amazing - and you're wrong, it does go somewhere, far beyond the realms of conventional rock music; Crimson re-express the song in abstract form, in a nutshell - the story it is telling is the entire song.
Once you "get" it, it's astonishing, and you begin to wonder if some day all the best music will sound like that.
Check out my review of the album, in which I give a few listening hints - can't promise you'll "get" or even like it, but hopefully you may hear it with fresh ears.
You have flown the flag for the merits of Moonchild for some time now but despite my having read your review and listened carefully to the instrumental portion loads of time since, it will never receive any salute from this squarebasher. Like Robert (Epignosis) I will probably just never get it.
Stairway? Really? IMHO the whole thing is sublime. Beautiful intro with a very clever ascending melody against the descending bass, then contrasting with the relative major (which is also easier for singers to siing over but that's not the point. The rephrasing of the relative major as it builds towards the climactic solo (which also houses a crucial bbass line only heard on the studio recording - Zeppelin's studio recording anyway) until the last moments. Perfection.
Wishbone Ash? Well Up to Argus is fine for me. Camel are best instrumentally (Snow Goose.) Latimer is quite a good singer for a guitarist. Lok at how awful say Hackett and Howe are at singing. Masterful guitarists but singers?
Hotel Californina does have that excellent guitar section (two guitars that can be arranged for one. It is accompanied by the same chord sequence as per the vocal part of the song. Anyway alot of these are set up so the lead instrumentalist can climax the piece. They're not better just expanded. of course one can like the instrumental section more than the vocal, that's fair.
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 05:01
Dalezilla wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
^Actually, the song part is average to mildly interesting, in my opinion.
How can a song that's "one of the most amazing things anybody has ever written in the whole canon of music." have an average to mildly interesting part?
Quite easily really - there are many songs which have instrumentals that are so much better than the actual verse/chorus part of the song - "Stairway to Heaven" springs to mind, "Hotel California" is another, and almost anything by Camel or Wishbone Ash are good examples.
^Actually, the song part is average to mildly interesting, in my opinion.
How can a song that's "one of the most amazing things anybody has ever written in the whole canon of music." have an average to mildly interesting part?
I wonder if there is a quick way to get to a reviwer's review? ITCOTCK seems to have quite a few reviews. I'm always prepared to revist some music if there is potential vlaue and there always is with KC. I'll give it (yet another ) spin.
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 03:27
^Actually, the song part is average to mildly interesting, in my opinion.
It's the instrumental passage that is so amazing - and you're wrong, it does go somewhere, far beyond the realms of conventional rock music; Crimson re-express the song in abstract form, in a nutshell - the story it is telling is the entire song.
Once you "get" it, it's astonishing, and you begin to wonder if some day all the best music will sound like that.
Check out my review of the album, in which I give a few listening hints - can't promise you'll "get" or even like it, but hopefully you may hear it with fresh ears.
I've liustened to Moonchild. Wonderful song. Trouble (for me is) the guitar solo. Ten minutes of the start of variation of phrases which after a while I find do not go anywhere. They don't even meander, Just begin something and then re phrase and so on.
it does not tell a story as any instrumental should.
But that's just my view. The song Moonchild is stellar. First class.
Oh and no one HAS to listen to anything. But sometimes the more inventive music may not readily be apparent. That's why if I find there's something I don't - but should like then I'll wait for the right time and sure enough if there is something for me it'll appear.
Prog / classical / jazz etc is not top 40 immediacy. Sometimes one has to be patient. Sorry folks but when you get to arty music you gotta make a mental adjustment. I found if someone's taken the time to write, rehearse, record and produce music then I have a responsibility as a listener to do my best (such as it is.) At the moment P Tree's Incident is working a little magic on me. I started not liking it. How intriguing although I figured why. But I have to give it a few more spins yet.
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 02:12
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
I don't think that you have to "listen" to anything ...
It's actually the other way around ... if something doesn't grab you ... you're done listening!
I have to disagree with this - Genesis' "The Musical Box" did not "grab me" on first hearing.
I thought it was nonsense - what was all that stuff with nursery rhymes in? Why didn't it just ROCK?
Now, the more I listen to it intently, the more enjoyment I get out of it - 30 years on and it still delivers more stuff every time.
King Crimson are like that too.
It's amazing, for example, how few people LISTEN to "MoonChild", which is frankly one of the most amazing things anybody has ever written in the whole canon of music.
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 00:53
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
I don't think that you have to "listen" to anything ...
It's actually the other way around ... if something doesn't grab you ... you're done listening!
I think you may be right, I do "hint" that a bit in my rant. But yes "something" about this music
HITS you . . . but then you "listen" to what hit your personal instincts, the sound, to try to
understand the "why" - it does? Thats what attracted me to KC and GG and who it got me ready
for in my discoveries to come.
It was odd and soo different than anything that most people listened to or what media presented,
even back then. It clicked something in my Brain un-tapped, I guess its after all these years that
I listen to it . . .
"No matter how I break it apart, no matter how I break it down . . . it remains consistant"
"Shapes and forms, against the norms..." And join the Prog Family: prOgulus.com
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Posted: March 09 2010 at 19:43
Hi,
I don't think that you have to "listen" to anything ...
It's actually the other way around ... if something doesn't grab you ... you're done listening!
The important thing is that some of the things that KC started with changed in due time and it became a little more "sense-less" as a way to be more like Robert's experimental nature ... I never thought, for example that any lyrics in "Lark's Tongues in Aspic" ... had any sensible importance, like Epitath did, or even in the main title song in that album! ... and I find that too much of the stuff with Adrain Belew is more for fun and whatever, than it is anything else ...
It's like saying that you have to "listen" to Stravinsky to enjoy it ... or anyone else ... when I think that their best is ... they grab you because it is all so different ... that it surprises your noggin ... and sends it for a loop ... think hard ... which music grabbed you hard? .. you were not listening it because it had such a monumental cm7 to eb9 to cm76 to blah and blah ... were you? ...
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: January 02 2008
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Posted: March 08 2010 at 22:16
King Crimson struck me like ALOT of Early Prog struck me:
Crimson, Genesis, Gentle Giant and Pink Floyd when I was between 12 and 15 . . .
WHAT THA 'ELLL!!!???
Each with their own intricate musicianship but I wasnt ready yet. Floyd, Giant, Genesis and Crimson
grew on me in that order . . . but it took about a decade to understand.
But if it were not for these guys (including Rush, Yes, ELP and Kansas). I would not have understood
or gotten into the more Technical side of Thrash and Death Metal. And later on, Math Metal. Or a
passion for Music.
When I 1st heard "Spirit of Radio" by Rush, I didn't know what to make of it, it was like 3 songs in 1
as the song played out, I just didn't know what to make of it, it was different than anything I had heard
of. By the time I understood GG and KC, Rush was nothing/a bit easier to get, and whatever came
next was easier to swallow (Don't mis-understand, Rush is everything to me, and they can get a bit
technical in their own way, I'm a fanatic ).
I bought "The Power and the Glory" by GG thinking it would be a Medieval-laden Prog album . . .
it was . . . WEIRD, the intertwining harmonies, odd-meter, inSANE intricate musicianship was just
too much for me to understand! That album stayed in my evergrowing LP collection for "20 Years"
till I broke it out and was . . . ASTOUNDED. It opened the door for Echolyn, Advent, Spocks Beard,
Eyestrings and the like, by then I was ready for anything.
For King Crimson it was the SNL rip-off "Fridays" that turned me onto THIS:
(hurry up and watch this, it constantly gets removed, but this is the worst
quality I have seen of this one so-far).
I don't think I've ever seen Fripp so Happy!
From this I went backwards in their catalogue, but it was the sophmore "Primary Colour Albums"
(Discipline, Beat, Three of a Perfect Pair) that would become my faves. But Crimson could be
both extremely mechanical to melancholic and everything in-between . . . DIVERSITY! in one
band! (so do the other bands mentioned).
Preaching to the Choir, not . . . "Them".
Take "yourself as a progger" out of the equation of most Metal Heads and AOR Radio "Classic
Rockers", especially the Top40 mentality out there . . .
Most will think all this is NOISE and that it makes no sense, it has no soul or feeling . . . because
MOST people don't understand music, simply what it can do to their brain as well as their "feet"
or heart. They think its someting to "hum to", do the dishes with, thats all and what it should be.
Math Metal has a lot to be thankful for in bands like Gentle Giant and King Crimson.
Later KC gets even more complicated and bands like Meshuggah, Tool, Spiral Architect, Cynic
and soo many others cite KC as an influence, but even Metal Heads can't stand these "Math Metal"
bands because they don't follow a trend or linear-line.
I do think you REALLY need to "listen" to KC and the like at first, some get it right away, others it
takes time. I am one of those that need some to grow on me, those end up being the best because
they endure. I don't end up saying like many others do when they hit a certain age, "I used to listen
to them alot", its as if society has made them "embarrased" to listen to this music.
Well, I've been through the birth of every genre of Metal and Prog. As far as Prog goes, I like all its
sub-genres . . . EVERY subgenre. Metal can be "gross" or too symplistic, but merge it with Prog . . .
now youre talkin' (I'm 46 by the way).
Just many parts to the whole, all these influences made me a Fan of all the sub-genres, to the
humorous, avant garde, heavy extremes, complex, melodic, epic, dark and everything else from
past to present.
King Crimson is awesome, and its a similar take to what Bill Bruford said when Yes became a
success, "Okay, I did that and got it out of my system. Now I want to do something adventurous".
Ha! Yes wasn't!??? wow . . . little did we know .
Edited by MAVIII - March 10 2010 at 04:13
"Shapes and forms, against the norms..." And join the Prog Family: prOgulus.com
With the early King Crimson the style seems almost theatrical. There are too many elements for people to digest. I was feeling a bit on the darkside upon hearing the band for the first time. I was struck by the musicianship and composition instantly. I went the distance for this band. Islands was an album that was considered by many critics to be the weaker title in comparision to the first 3. I found the record to be very uplifting. It brings to mind the life of Fletcher Christian or whatever subject matter you may find appealing. As it is a great album to play during a book reading. Pete Sinfield's poetry is romantic avant-garde. There is something about "In the Court of the Crimson King" that reminds me of "The Wizard of Oz" There is a darkside to the album that projects something mysterious to the air or your ear, but it is there nevertheless creating an atmosphere that gives off an impression to the listener.
How is Gentle Giant bizarre? I mean within context Giant have all the virtues (and more just watch that live DVD) of any good (and they are a GREAT) prog outfit.
Some people think Thrakattak is weird (even Mr Belew on the Absent Lovers album calls KC improvs weird (but affectionately so.) It's not weird at all. Just not mainstream.
Actually KC make superb mainstream songs - not often but their talents encompass a great deal of achievement.
Unless weird is good... it is! Neurotica!
But it's so simple to explain why fans of pop music consider the Giant's music bizzare when understanding what derives from people of this nature. Tri-Tones are often used in Gentle Giant's music and King Crimson's as well. Tri-Tones are often heard by the mass in a film score for a horror film which is for example, a box office smash. As a rule this is when most people hear their usage. Most people don't give the horror soundtrack their full attention however, if the Tri-Tones are used in a scene that keeps people on the edge of their seats, then that mode has served it's full intent and purpose, as it has artistically colored the acting scene with it's own fashionable horror. When the average listener hears Gentle Giant at a friend's house, their impression and reaction is quite the same as it was during the exposure they had to a horror film score. Many people who are fans of pop music have stated this to me first hand........"This sounds strange like horror movie music"! Why would you listen to this?.......People of this nature seem to except strange sounding modes at the movies. As long as it fits into the film or scene concept, they seem to except the music complimenting the film but, they are alien to prog rock bands utilizing these modes in rock song composition. That's the experience I have always had with mainstream society.
Oh yes. I ran into just this thing when hip hop fans heard Art Zoyd. Frankly I see no problem with horror film music per se. I think it's the reactonary-ism that pervades most popular music. And Crimson have got to play some of the more unsettling music. I doubt the majority of people want to hear unsettling music - they mighht have enough upsets in their daily life without their entertainment getting in on the act.
This is fine by me, freedom of choice etc. of course when this music is derided by the pop fan, well then a little guidance may help. No conversion to the prog cause but no alienation from it either.
You are so right about the movie parallel. I've just been reading about this same experience but from a film composer's view point. It seems everyone's a King Leopold (too many notes in this") to the minority Mozart prog fan ("there's exactly the right amount.")
The imagery (mental movie?) one gets from progressive or any art music creates such a (usually) negative impact on those unused to it. Might be a bit much for an untutored palate. It took me a while to get to grips with much prog rock. I know one perserveres and reaps the rewards though.
Of course in the instant gratification society this is ever so unfashionable and unfathomable.
How is Gentle Giant bizarre? I mean within context Giant have all the virtues (and more just watch that live DVD) of any good (and they are a GREAT) prog outfit.
Some people think Thrakattak is weird (even Mr Belew on the Absent Lovers album calls KC improvs weird (but affectionately so.) It's not weird at all. Just not mainstream.
Actually KC make superb mainstream songs - not often but their talents encompass a great deal of achievement.
Unless weird is good... it is! Neurotica!
But it's so simple to explain why fans of pop music consider the Giant's music bizzare when understanding what derives from people of this nature. Tri-Tones are often used in Gentle Giant's music and King Crimson's as well. Tri-Tones are often heard by the mass in a film score for a horror film which is for example, a box office smash. As a rule this is when most people hear their usage. Most people don't give the horror soundtrack their full attention however, if the Tri-Tones are used in a scene that keeps people on the edge of their seats, then that mode has served it's full intent and purpose, as it has artistically colored the acting scene with it's own fashionable horror. When the average listener hears Gentle Giant at a friend's house, their impression and reaction is quite the same as it was during the exposure they had to a horror film score. Many people who are fans of pop music have stated this to me first hand........"This sounds strange like horror movie music"! Why would you listen to this?.......People of this nature seem to except strange sounding modes at the movies. As long as it fits into the film or scene concept, they seem to except the music complimenting the film but, they are alien to prog rock bands utilizing these modes in rock song composition. That's the experience I have always had with mainstream society.
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You have to Really listen to King Crimson
Topic Options
Certif1ed wrote:
Like Robert (Epignosis) I will probably just never get it.
).
There is a darkside to the album that projects something mysterious to the air or your ear, but it is there nevertheless creating an atmosphere that gives off an impression to the listener.
. Being a major KC fan, I have no problem whatsoever in listening to them.