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jammun 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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 Topic: Capital Punishment: For or Against?
Posted: December 01 2009 at 20:41 |
Well the last chapter has been written for one guy. I'm sure postscripts are to follow.
Chapters for the victims' families, and his friends and family who abetted him over the last day or two, are yet to be written. I would say in the end there are far more than five lives destroyed.
I would suggest anyone interested in the arguments for/against capital punishment read Norman Mailer's The Executioners Song, which gives an almost minute by minute account -- from crime to death -- of what it's all about. Remarkable book, and still one of my favorites after all these years. Oh, and BOC's Fear the Reaper is a looming presence in the narrative. Highly recommended if you are interested in the topic.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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crimhead
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 19236
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Posted: December 01 2009 at 12:13 |
 Finnforest wrote:
Vibrationbaby wrote:
Vibrationbaby wrote:
jammun wrote:
Now back to reality:
Four cops gunned down today. Let's look at the toll:
Sergeant, age 39. He is survived by a wife, two daughters and a son.
Officer, age 37. He is survived by a former wife and a daughter.
Officer, age 40. She is survived by her husband and two children.
Officer age 42. He is survived by a wife and three children.
Now explain to me why the person who is responsible deserves anything, even his life.
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Last I heard they hadn't caught the guy but from what I've heard this was a cold blooded executuion.
Medieval torture for this guy once they get him. |
Update :
The cops just killed the guy who was holed up in a friend's house and saved some time and money. Next idiot step right up.
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Oh that is the only good news of this story! It's so much better when it ends this way. The families don't have to go through a long trial, watching the scum act defiant and spout a bunch of nonsense. No lengthly appeals at taxpayer expense. He's just gone. Fantastic. Too bad more of them don't end this way. |
The guy sounded like he had some mental issues going on. Claimed he was Jesus and the world was coming to an end. I am glad that no further lives were lost in this.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: December 01 2009 at 10:15 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
Vibrationbaby wrote:
jammun wrote:
Now back to reality:
Four cops gunned down today. Let's look at the toll:
Sergeant, age 39. He is survived by a wife, two daughters and a son.
Officer, age 37. He is survived by a former wife and a daughter.
Officer, age 40. She is survived by her husband and two children.
Officer age 42. He is survived by a wife and three children.
Now explain to me why the person who is responsible deserves anything, even his life.
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Last I heard they hadn't caught the guy but from what I've heard this was a cold blooded executuion.
Medieval torture for this guy once they get him. |
Update :
The cops just killed the guy who was holed up in a friend's house and saved some time and money. Next idiot step right up.
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Oh that is the only good news of this story! It's so much better when it ends this way. The families don't have to go through a long trial, watching the scum act defiant and spout a bunch of nonsense. No lengthly appeals at taxpayer expense. He's just gone. Fantastic. Too bad more of them don't end this way.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 01 2009 at 08:16 |
Guess nobody could be glad about it... but at least it's a relief to have one killer less... And for those who said that these topics are useless, well, see it this way... If we have a perfect system, where killer could get a 100% regenaration and can live a regular life, then I would say that capital punishment should not have to exists, but when you see that the medicine is worse than the illness, well, it's a good option...
I'm against utopia, we live in a cruel world and we have to defend life... but not the murderers/rapers life...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: December 01 2009 at 07:34 |
Vibrationbaby wrote:
jammun wrote:
Now back to reality:
Four cops gunned down today. Let's look at the toll:
Sergeant, age 39. He is survived by a wife, two daughters and a son.
Officer, age 37. He is survived by a former wife and a daughter.
Officer, age 40. She is survived by her husband and two children.
Officer age 42. He is survived by a wife and three children.
Now explain to me why the person who is responsible deserves anything, even his life.
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Last I heard they hadn't caught the guy but from what I've heard this was a cold blooded executuion. Medieval torture for this guy once they get him. |
Update : The cops just killed the guy who was holed up in a friend's house and saved some time and money. Next idiot step right up.
Edited by Vibrationbaby - December 01 2009 at 07:35
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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Posted: December 01 2009 at 03:47 |
No, definitely not. Life-long sentence is the way. I'm not saying that these people are saints, or kind people. If they murdered once, they can do it again. But justice is blind, so errors may happened.
Sentencing innocent person to death is not so nice, isn't it ? Anyway, our country is one of these (majority, or minority?) where we don't have capital p., even we talked about it a lot in school (you know, education). Of course, this has its bad side, there were cases (talking about Czech Republic), where these people escaped from prison. And they killed again. Better prison guards I suppose ? :- /
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: December 01 2009 at 02:51 |
CPicard wrote:
I was wrong: it happened in Bolivia.
Back to the topic: let's close this thread.
While I can understand some people need to talk about their political ideas, I feel that some of the non musical subjects of the forum would bring PA to sterile and destructive arguments.
From atheism and creationism to Obama's politic or capital punishment, any subject would lead to the same exchange : "I'm for it / I'm against It"; "I'm for it, because... / I'm against it, because...", and "You are wrong, I'm right / No, YOU are wrong, I AM right"
Here, the Pro would call the Anti "idealistic sheeps who never suffered", and the Anti would call the Pro "a bunch of blood-thirsty self-proclaimed vigilantes". At the end of the speech, no one would change his/her mind.
To all people, go fight elsewhere. Go out and vote. Join a political party, a syndicate, an association, whatever.
I'm sick.
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A very neat and heartfelt summation of where practically every 'emotive topic' thread ends up on PA. The conclusion is also appropriate i.e. talk is cheap until action pushes the price up
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 22:34 |
Fair enough, I will let this topic go, though reserve the right to post any updates (unless the admins lock the post, obviously) regarding the most recent situation here in WA.
One last word: I generally am not in favor of state-sanctioned killing (hey, I grew up during the Viet Nam War era and am no fan of what is currently going on with the U.S. military policies), but when the state is incapable, for whatever reason, of locking some of these sorts up forever, I do not see the death penalty as a bad alternative for those who, due to the incompetance of the penal system, live to kill/rape/molest another day.
There's a bit in Tolkein's Lord of the Rings. I'm only paraphrasing, but at one point I think it's Sam just wants to kill Gollum. I think it's Gandalf who says something like, "There are many persons who are alive who deserve to be dead. And there are many persons who are dead who deserve to be alive. Can you bring those who are dead back? Then don't be too willing to send those who are alive to death." I think we can all live with this.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 17:12 |
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I was wrong: it happened in Bolivia.
Back to the topic: let's close this thread.
While I can understand some people need to talk about their political ideas, I feel that some of the non musical subjects of the forum would bring PA to sterile and destructive arguments.
From atheism and creationism to Obama's politic or capital punishment, any subject would lead to the same exchange : "I'm for it / I'm against It"; "I'm for it, because... / I'm against it, because...", and "You are wrong, I'm right / No, YOU are wrong, I AM right"
Here, the Pro would call the Anti "idealistic sheeps who never suffered", and the Anti would call the Pro "a bunch of blood-thirsty self-proclaimed vigilantes". At the end of the speech, no one would change his/her mind.
To all people, go fight elsewhere. Go out and vote. Join a political party, a syndicate, an association, whatever.
I'm sick.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 16:34 |
dude... you need to research your sources... in Guatemala cannot be erradicated the native americans because they are the 60% of population and most of the rest 40% have native roots... so, I think you should check who you are reading... that's the lie that the rebels sold during the civil war to get money from european countries who thought they were fighting for the rights of the poor... I can tell you because is my history and my country and I can stand to whatever you believe that this lie is one thing that really makes this country to suffer... wonder where the rebels are since the peace sign...?? yeah, their weapons are the ones who are killing people every day (17 deads each day) and those rebels now are murderers...
Well, that's for another topic... just I can tell you that all that you read about "genocide" is pure lie man... there were excess, yes, painfully, but never at the levels they want you to think of... back to the topic... here we have I think like 156 criminal already sentenced guilty and waiting for the capital punishment... some of them have like 8 years of waiting their punishment and the govenrment still don't take the lead to execute them... sad really... they live like kings in the jails... very, very sad...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 16:23 |
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Was it in Guatemala or in Belize that the government tried to eradicate the local Native American people?
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 15:18 |
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Then again... the discussion is... this guy who murdered 4 guys deserves to live? No, at least not in this planet, and society needs to be protected. Again, he deserves to die -an ugly death if you ask me- not just because he put in danger the life of whoever he lives close from, but because he have to pay 4 murders and that's it... imagine that the wives and kids of this officers will pay the long life of this criminal in jail... that's stupid... so, capital punishment is what we need and that's it... later I will speak about criminal rates per country... maybe there's a lot to talk about...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 14:48 |
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I have no desire to terminate the life of anyone, but then it again when it comes to some prominent conservatives you just might not have to twist my arm too hard. Can I have their money after they are toast?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 14:43 |
No need to make sense of it. I don't care about his reason or his sob story. I'd volunteer to flip that switch, though I don't know if they have permanent rehabilitation in that state. Hopefully they do.
Edited by Finnforest - November 30 2009 at 14:44
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 12:29 |
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Ultimately you can never make sense out of senseless acts.
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 30 2009 at 14:48
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: November 30 2009 at 12:23 |
jammun wrote:
Now back to reality:
Four cops gunned down today. Let's look at the toll:
Sergeant, age 39. He is survived by a wife, two daughters and a son.
Officer, age 37. He is survived by a former wife and a daughter.
Officer, age 40. She is survived by her husband and two children.
Officer age 42. He is survived by a wife and three children.
Now explain to me why the person who is responsible deserves anything, even his life.
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Last I heard they hadn't caught the guy but from what I've heard this was a cold blooded executuion. Medieval torture for this guy once they get him.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: November 29 2009 at 22:14 |
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And apparently his previous sentence was commuted by President wannabee Mike Huckabee in Arkansas.
If this is true, so much for compassion, and rehabilitation. I wish he could get what he really deserves.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: November 29 2009 at 21:49 |
Now back to reality:
Four cops gunned down today. Let's look at the toll:
Sergeant, age 39. He is survived by a wife, two daughters and a son.
Officer, age 37. He is survived by a former wife and a daughter.
Officer, age 40. She is survived by her husband and two children.
Officer age 42. He is survived by a wife and three children.
Now explain to me why the person who is responsible deserves anything, even his life.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: November 29 2009 at 18:15 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
jammun wrote:
I would agree that there is something fundamentally flawed with the criminal justice system here in the U.S. I also don't know why we have much higher crime rates. Unfortunately, my area is no better nor worse than any other major city in the U.S.
Now just this morning, a bit south of here, four cops sitting in a coffee shop getting ready to start their shifts were ambushed and gunned down. All four dead.
Whoever is responsible will eventually be found. I'd argue that the person(s) does not deserve even a chance at rehabilitation. Put 'em away for all time, one way or another (true life sentence or execution). |
I know why we have a higher crime rate, I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.
Seriously, though I personally believe it is more about easy access to weapons, plain and simple. It provides a nut case with an easier means to do mayhem. Yet you can't underestimate the ability of people to do harm with unconventional weapons, McVeigh, Kazinsky, etc. for example.
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Please don't contemplate killing me Slarti, it's a long drive across the country...  ...and I'm hardly worth the effort, though I guess you could always come in and get my Beatles albums, most of which, while original, are hardly in even good shape.
I agree however that here in the good ol' USA anyone can get a gun, which is generally a more capable weapon of individual (as opposed to mass) destruction than, say, a knife.
I'll say again: there are some serious societal issues here, and some criminal justice issues as well. That I mention them in the same sentence suggests that they are interrelated, and I'm only a casual observer, albeit one who sees the little shrines erected by the side of the road, where someone was gunned down for who knows what reason.
Kazinsky's an interesting anomaly, a one man terrorist operating out of a hovel in Montana. We'd best hope there are no more like him.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: November 29 2009 at 17:50 |
jammun wrote:
I would agree that there is something fundamentally flawed with the criminal justice system here in the U.S. I also don't know why we have much higher crime rates. Unfortunately, my area is no better nor worse than any other major city in the U.S.
Now just this morning, a bit south of here, four cops sitting in a coffee shop getting ready to start their shifts were ambushed and gunned down. All four dead.
Whoever is responsible will eventually be found. I'd argue that the person(s) does not deserve even a chance at rehabilitation. Put 'em away for all time, one way or another (true life sentence or execution). |
I know why we have a higher crime rate, I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. Seriously, though I personally believe it is more about easy access to weapons, plain and simple. It provides a nut case with an easier means to do mayhem. Yet you can't underestimate the ability of people to do harm with unconventional weapons, McVeigh, Kazinsky, etc. for example.
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 30 2009 at 12:30
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Capital Punishment: For or Against?
