Christian prog vs secular prog

Right folks. We've let it roll on for a bit even though the discussion was no longer related to the original question, but today's tone of discussion leaves me no choice. This thread has long run it's course.

ghost_of_morphy wrote: EnglishAssassin wrote: ghost_of_morphy wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: Not all Atheists are good, I never said they were. But if they were religious it wouldn't mean that they wouldn't have done the stuff they did. It's funny that you should make up the god Athe, as though that violence were in the name of something. They were just violent people.   The point to that is that modern atheism has evolved to the point where it has all of the hallmarks of a religion except for a god. B*ll*cks has it.  Atheism has neither an organised structure nor a dogma.  Try contributing something useful rather than just making insultingly fatuous remarks. Oh my.  You'd think I'd just uttered heresy.

Don't flatter yourself, all you've done is say something disappointingly ill-informed.

King Crimson776 wrote: [Oh, ok, so they are just stuck in this valley forever instead of burning with the sinners. I see, great... I hope this is what Ghandi wanted.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 17 2008 at 12:58

ghost_of_morphy wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: Not all Atheists are good, I never said they were. But if they were religious it wouldn't mean that they wouldn't have done the stuff they did. It's funny that you should make up the god Athe, as though that violence were in the name of something. They were just violent people.   The point to that is that modern atheism has evolved to the point where it has all of the hallmarks of a religion except for a god.

hahahha. .damn right

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Sorry, but raising your kids in your religion is a right and I believe a duty if you believe it's the truth, I'm sure you have or will raise your children in your religion and nobody had the right to go against your will, you are responsible for your sons, not a Christian, Jewish or even Catholic singer.   When they are old enough to understand what they are accepting they will make their Confirmation or not, that's their choice, but teaching youir faith to your sons is not brainwashing, it's your duty, one adquired when yoi married and accepted to raise your kids in your faith.

Surely the point here, and it was one made by Baron d'Holbach a few hundred years ago, is that if you're convinced of the arguments of your particular faith, then you should be able to trust that a mature adult will accept them without having to have been indoctrinated from youth?  Shouldn't you have to weigh the rights of a parent to raise their children as they think best against those of children, as future adults, to make an informed decision of their own?  I don't wish to sound as though I'm attacking you or your faith here, but it's a question worth asking.

And can we please get away from the lazy argument that morality and religion are somehow indivisible?  Socrates had been fodder for the worms for four centuries before Christianity came into existence.

Organized religion can be a bad thing if reduced to a dogmatic ritualistic manner of things, however, organized religion when grounded in true faith and seeking the will of God is a wonderful thing. People like to put "organized religion" down because of the past mishaps of countless past bad examples, but in its purest form...lets just say - "Don't judge rock and roll by Bruce Springsteen"

And I think any Christian musician who uses music as a ministry should really think about it, I am not saying it shouldn't be that way but people are supposed to know Christians by our love for our neighbor. Interspersing good messages and Christian stories or values is fine but conversion is not up to how the verses in a song work, it is up to the work of God in a persons heart.

That being said, I think Neal Morse is pretty good, but I look at his lyrics as more of a historical commentary.

p0mt3 wrote: Oh yes, a good ol' brawl is what we need! Too much talking being done in the Prog fanatic realm. Any time we can get down and dirty is worth encouraging!

Hey, it's mellow when you're agnostic; you don't have to defend anything. I just question, question, question.

p0mt3 wrote: Let me say that I don't feel organized religion of any kind is a good thing, so the catholic AND protestant churches in my opinion are forms of a mindless cult following, which is something I personally don't think God wants us to be a part of. But that's me.

Well, agreed of course, but if you're saying that organized religion of any kind is bad, then it seems like you're talking more about the religion in general than just the church. Because the church is just where the people congregate, the religion itself is what the people all just choose to believe in and what ties them together. You seem to be more from the point of view of someone who believes in God but not any specific idea of that God.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: King Crimson776 wrote:  If I have a son, I'm going to tell him what is best for him in this secular society and let him believe what he wants and not scare him with thoughts of hell.    ROFLMAO, You are being more radical than any religious person:   "Hey kid, I'm your father, I won't teach you religion, because I don't believe in it, but if you want you can be a religious person later, in the meanwhile I'm only teaching you secular values."   For God's sake

How is this more radical than any religious person? This is the most open-minded way possible; I'm going to teach him values based on real life and what is certain for him as opposed to teaching him one way based on ancient writings from the beginning of his life, making it hard for him to see it any other way. This way he can make the decision to be spiritual in any way he wants later, instead of limiting him.

p0mt3 wrote: Oh, wow! I leave this thread and people are still discussing the music, then I return a couple of days later, and it's turned into UFC Holy smackdown!   Classic!

You have to admit, this owns talking about Christian prog.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: Ivan, I understand your desire to have your kid have morals that are based in something that would make the child follow them. I think the trade-off isn't worth it though,   No, I want my kid to have morals based in WHAT I HONESTLY BELIEVE IS THE TRUTH.   I think that the kid should choose later what he's going to believe.   That's the way it works, I Baptize him, make sure he makes his first Confession and first Communion, I teach him the bases but the rest is in him.   My parents neversaid a word when I became an Agnostic in my teen rebellion against everything, I ppersonally found my path in the university, nobody can force you to do anything.   If he later wants he will make his CONFIRMATION, if not, well he won't.    If I have a son, I'm going to tell him what is best for him in this secular society and let him believe what he wants and not scare him with thoughts of hell.    ROFLMAO, You are being more radical than any religious person:   "Hey kid, I'm your father, I won't teach you religion, because I don't believe in it, but if you want you can be a religious person later, in the meanwhile I'm only teaching you secular values."   For God's sake     That's me though, of course you're free to raise him as you see fit and would never say that you should raise him a certain way. I'm sure he'll be fine believing what you do. I have many religious friends who are great people. I also have many atheist friends who are equally as moral, so I was just stating my view that religion isn't necessary for morals, but yeah, certainly religion can ground them in specific examples of stories in which the morals come into play. I'd probably give real life examples instead of those found in the bible though.   We are not so different, only that I'm sure that what is in the Bible (especially in the New Testament) is real.   Iván   BTW: Ghost of Morphy, your case is perfect, you didn't failled, I only mention the order of priorities because I was ready to read (from other members) that we were using Religion as an instrument of socialization.   I believe I know your posuition about this issues