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bhikkhu View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 03 2007 at 05:27
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:



Yes, it is jsut the initial chart you see on the home page which has been changed. M@x is still considering further changes.
Maybe you could remind him about live albums in the top 100 on the front page ... they should be removed as well.And while we're at it: On the top 100 page the search filters don't work together too well ... when I select "studio albums" and then another genre, the "studio albums" selection is lost, and generally the selection of album type isn't highlighted.Smile


I think live albums have their place. Yes, they are compilations, but they are different versions. Peter Gabriel "Plays Live" is a tremendous album on its own. And I would place "Yessongs" over a good number of their studio albums.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2007 at 02:21
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Noted Mike. I'll raise it with M@x.
 
I'm not sure that we have an overall consensus about live albums through, what do others think about not allowing them in the top 100?
 
Last time I questioned this, I mentioned "Pictures at an exhibition" by ELP, which is otherwise unavailable on a studio album (in full). Someone suggested it should be reclassified as a studio album, which is clearly not the answer!


My suggestion to solve this problem: Add a separate list for top live albums beneath the current list. Max already truncated the list from 100 to 50 entries, why not simply add a separate "top 20 prog live albums/DVDs" list?

The problem is - like The T pointed out - that the vast majority of live albums are either like compilations or they are "duplicates" of studio albums (like Dream Theater - Live Scenes or Pain of Salvation - Be Live).
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micky View Drop Down
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2007 at 20:33
stop this madness... 

now we want to eliminate live albums from this list.... hey what's next...why don't we remove frickin prog-metal albums as well. They aren't progressive enough. LOL

The list is now composed of prog albums....  let that dead horse rot in peace now.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 13:51
As long as there is no direct contention with a Live ablum not being Prog,(Tongue), then it should be allowed to be judged alongside the bands Studio work. Let's be honest here - what we are discussing is whether they should show in the Top 100 progressive albums and if they do then they are judged to be better - so I say yes, include them.
 
DVD's are a completely different issue - they are usually bought by hardcore fans of the band, not by people with a casual interest, hence this will be reflected in the ratings (in statisitical terms they will be skewed in favour of a high rating) and hence cannot be (or are not) judged on equal terms with audio recordings.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 13:39
I think live albums should be eliminated from the top-100. As brilliant as some may be, those are, in a way, compilations; as art goes, I think the highest expression is the studio album; live albums are an expression of the art of the performance, but the art of creativity is used mostly in studio albums. The same with DVDs.
 
For situations like ELP's Mussorgsky's rendition, I'd re-categorize it as a studio album, which I know is quite incoherent but it would be a good way to include it in the list.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:27
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

I also vote for keeping live albums... not sure about DVD, though. I'll think some more.


eh, I don't think there's good reason to eliminate various releases besides lives and studio from a generic most popular top, it would be both narrow in perspective and drastic in suggesting the great rated values around the site.

I think mainly PR and PP bands had the usual problem and bicker of "non-prog", as to not be able to face a common and total top list. Otherwise, there are still great PP and PR bands, that is, bands who deserve totally to be in those two genres.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:24
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

I don't see why live albums shouldn't be in the Top 100. "Pictures" is perhaps the best example of why we shouldn't exclude them, also CDs such as ELP's "Welcome Back My Friends" which features substantially different versions of songs such as "Aquatarkus" and "Take a Pebble" should be there.


100% agreedClap.  Personally, as I have often stated, finding PP/PR albums in the Top 100 didn't make me lose sleep at all - but then, I have never cared about such lists, though I understand they can function as a guide for people who are new to prog and want to get some reliable recommendations before parting with their hard-earned cash.

However, I don't understand what's wrong with live albums, especially the ones which feature a high level of improvisation. Live albums are an integral part of a band or artist's output, and I can't see any reason for excluding them from a list which is supposed to be a guide to the best prog around.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:23
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Noted Mike. I'll raise it with M@x.
 
I'm not sure that we have an overall consensus about live albums through, what do others think about not allowing them in the top 100?
 
Last time I questioned this, I mentioned "Pictures at an exhibition" by ELP, which is otherwise unavailable on a studio album (in full). Someone suggested it should be reclassified as a studio album, which is clearly not the answer!
 
First off great job removing Pr and PP.
 
I was always for removing live albums also but you raise an interesting case with PanE. I don't feel it would be fair to exclude albums of completely original material like that, but as you said you can't say that it's not a live album. SO I would say live albums stay.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:20
Ummagumma, Ricochet and Elegy are other slightly problematic "live" albums (not to mention Three Sides Live)
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:17
I also vote for keeping live albums... not sure about DVD, though. I'll think some more.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:14
I wouldn't exclude live albums at all. At least 70% of live albums are original or show the artist's full expression. If they are good albums or very popular ones, even better. 
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:07
I don't see why live albums shouldn't be in the Top 100. "Pictures" is perhaps the best example of why we shouldn't exclude them, also CDs such as ELP's "Welcome Back My Friends" which features substantially different versions of songs such as "Aquatarkus" and "Take a Pebble" should be there.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 11:03
Noted Mike. I'll raise it with M@x.
 
I'm not sure that we have an overall consensus about live albums through, what do others think about not allowing them in the top 100?
 
Last time I questioned this, I mentioned "Pictures at an exhibition" by ELP, which is otherwise unavailable on a studio album (in full). Someone suggested it should be reclassified as a studio album, which is clearly not the answer!
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 07:23
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Yes, it is jsut the initial chart you see on the home page which has been changed. M@x is still considering further changes.


Maybe you could remind him about live albums in the top 100 on the front page ... they should be removed as well.

And while we're at it: On the top 100 page the search filters don't work together too well ... when I select "studio albums" and then another genre, the "studio albums" selection is lost, and generally the selection of album type isn't highlighted.

Smile
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The Whistler View Drop Down
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Points: 7113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 04:40

...

(why are we talking in c-de?)
 
Oh, wait, OH! I get it...proto and prog related, yeah. Gotta admit, as much as I hate it, all of you talking weirdo language does make me think harder. Which rarely happens in real people land (as you might have guessed).


Edited by The Whistler - August 01 2007 at 04:41
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Easy Livin View Drop Down
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2007 at 03:37
Yes, it is jsut the initial chart you see on the home page which has been changed. M@x is still considering further changes.
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chopper View Drop Down
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2007 at 16:49
I said this in another thread, but if you look at the top 100 (by clicking the link  at the bottom of the Top 50 on the home page) p-p and p-r are there (e.g. Quadrophenia is at number 20). 
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2007 at 15:49
I had no problems with them in the top, it is a complain equal to those of "too popular albums" being always ahead of many other ones in my eyes, but I guess a bit of fix has its merit.


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Points: 2492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2007 at 15:39
I noticed that right after I posted Embarrassed. Oh well
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2007 at 15:35
^The most popular album is no longer by The Who but Pink Floyd.
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