Proto and Prog Related - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Topic: Proto and Prog Related
Posted: January 25 2007 at 14:58

Ghost Rider wrote:

clarke2001 wrote:

But then again, most of us started appreciating those obscure bands by listening to the well-known ones ...Iron Maiden , Purple, Queen could be pleasant surprise to some people...and if someone wants to find Hoyry-Kone on the internet, the Google search engine will happily show progarchives.com very close to first in search results, right? Wink

As Raf says further good post Clarke, but one good new, Prog Archives is already in N° 1 on the Google search.

In my case, I'm a purist but not a radical, I don''t have the slightest problem with Proto Prog, IMHO it's an essential part of the evolution of Progressive Rock, the direct link between Psychedelia in it's purest form and Progressive Rock, must be treated as any other sub-genre.

About Prog Related, I understand the problems of some members, I used to have them until it was clear enough that there's also a link between Prog and mainstream, so it's necessary to have it, but (Again IMO) with one slight limitation, no 5 stars ratings admited so they may appear in the front page (As any other review) but not in the top 100, because the top must be reserved for REAL PROG ESSENTIAL ADDITIONS and a non Prog band (Prog Related is described even in the defnition as non Prog) can't be considered essential for the genre.

However, your most important statement is in the last paragraph. PA's database is organised in a very user-friendly way, which will allow anyone to find the relevant info for any act they're interested in, including high-quality reviews. To say that the inclusion of high-profile, well-known bands prevents people from learning about new ones doesn't really make that much sense. I'm afraid some people have what I call a 'Taleban' attitude to Prog, which does more harm than good.

I don't believe it's a Taleban position Raf, it's sese of history:

Punk took by assault the charts of alternative non pure mainstream genres, I thought they had comed to stay, soon New Wave appeared and both genres were the peak in that moment I believed Prog was doom.

But they made a mistake, Punk blended with New Age and accepted plenty of mainstream bands with remote Punk connections, the guy who liked the aggressiveand almost revolutionary message of the Sex Pistols was not able to accept a playboy bunny like Blondie in their own genre, and she was sold to the public as Punk or Post Punk, both genres lost identity inmediately and vanished, today Punk is just a shadow in the memory of most people.

Prog kept a low profile, never was remotely popular as Punk, New Age or Disco Music (Another boom but more related to top 40) but we kept a safe distance from mainstream, accepting some soft and lighter bands but not selling as a genre to the charts...We are still here and since 1991, Prog has a clear rebirth, it's healter than ever after the mid 70's and growing.

I love Prog, I'm ready to admit Prog related and I believe it's essential but trying to keep this bands from blending with the iconic, only limiting the ratings of PR to 4 stars.

The rest should remain as it is now, including Proto Prog which IMO it's a trascendental step in the understanding of Rock but specially Prog evolution.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 25 2007 at 14:58

Raff

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429

Posted: January 25 2007 at 09:59

clarke2001 wrote:

I love proto-prog and prog-related categories...simply because I like the majority of bands included in those. And someone said the site is infected by them...what an insult!
There would be no prog today without those bands.

Anyway, as far as the Top100 chart goes...it just needs a small box with a tick or "x" to enable/disable option of inclusion proto/related bands...

As the front page goes, I don't know... I'm aware that owner of the site wants to attract as much pople as possible, and I know that people looking for rare obscure bands will be somewhate dissapointed seeing Zep or Doors on the front page...

But then again, most of us started appreciating those obscure bands by listening to the well-known ones ...Iron Maiden , Purple, Queen could be pleasant surprise to some people...and if someone wants to find Hoyry-Kone on the internet, the Google search engine will happily show progarchives.com very close to first in search results, right? Wink

Great post, Clarke2001, and loads of common sense! I think far too many people are obsessed with PP/PR supposedly 'infecting' the purity of the site. This is something I can't really approve of - with very few exceptions, all the bands/artists listed in those two controversial categories have undeniable ties to prog, either because they influenced it, or were influenced of it.

However, your most important statement is in the last paragraph. PA's database is organised in a very user-friendly way, which will allow anyone to find the relevant info for any act they're interested in, including high-quality reviews. To say that the inclusion of high-profile, well-known bands prevents people from learning about new ones doesn't really make that much sense. I'm afraid some people have what I call a 'Taleban' attitude to Prog, which does more harm than good.

clarke2001 View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160

Posted: January 25 2007 at 07:30

I love proto-prog and prog-related categories...simply because I like the majority of bands included in those. And someone said the site is infected by them...what an insult!
There would be no prog today without those bands.

Anyway, as far as the Top100 chart goes...it just needs a small box with a tick or "x" to enable/disable option of inclusion proto/related bands...

As the front page goes, I don't know... I'm aware that owner of the site wants to attract as much pople as possible, and I know that people looking for rare obscure bands will be somewhate dissapointed seeing Zep or Doors on the front page...

But then again, most of us started appreciating those obscure bands by listening to the well-known ones ...Iron Maiden , Purple, Queen could be pleasant surprise to some people...and if someone wants to find Hoyry-Kone on the internet, the Google search engine will happily show progarchives.com very close to first in search results, right? Wink

cmidkiff

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 208

Posted: January 24 2007 at 09:33

Ghost Rider wrote:

However, I'd like to point out one thing to those who scream to high heaven every time a controversial addition is made: most other Prog sites are much more watered-down. ProgGnosis has a huge database that contains artists like Evanescence, whose relation with prog seems to me to be so distant as to be non-existent. Sea of Tranquillity reviews bands from Poison to the most extreme black metal. ProgressiveEars has reviews for Iron Maiden, Blue Oyster Cult and Talking Heads. All of this has been personally verified, and it would be nice if some people took that into account instead of starting a war every time a band they don't agree with is added to our DB.

That is a good point, and that is why I come to here and not those other sites. I'm just hoping this site doesn't catch up to them.

cmidkiff

Raff

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429

Posted: January 24 2007 at 08:54

cmidkiff wrote:

There is an interesting parallel here:
First the site starts out with just progressive music just like those first prog bands that started in the late 60's early 70's.
But then as time went on pressure from the record labels pushed these bands into watering down their music in order to appeal to a wider fan base to sell more records.
So as it was here as time went on pressure from some forum members who wanted their favorite band on the site along with the potential to bring in more traffic led to a more watered down criteria for inclusion.

I guess its just the nature of progressive music and commercialism

I think it is the nature of today's world, unfortunately. I don't necessarily agree with some of the choices made here, but I can understand that it is an undertaking that costs time and money to its owners.

However, I'd like to point out one thing to those who scream to high heaven every time a controversial addition is made: most other Prog sites are much more watered-down. ProgGnosis has a huge database that contains artists like Evanescence, whose relation with prog seems to me to be so distant as to be non-existent. Sea of Tranquillity reviews bands from Poison to the most extreme black metal. ProgressiveEars has reviews for Iron Maiden, Blue Oyster Cult and Talking Heads. All of this has been personally verified, and it would be nice if some people took that into account instead of starting a war every time a band they don't agree with is added to our DB.

cmidkiff

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 208

Posted: January 24 2007 at 08:36

There is an interesting parallel here:
First the site starts out with just progressive music just like those first prog bands that started in the late 60's early 70's.
But then as time went on pressure from the record labels pushed these bands into watering down their music in order to appeal to a wider fan base to sell more records.
So as it was here as time went on pressure from some forum members who wanted their favorite band on the site along with the potential to bring in more traffic led to a more watered down criteria for inclusion.

I guess its just the nature of progressive music and commercialism

cmidkiff

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268

Posted: January 24 2007 at 04:06

No. I like Proto and PR, they enhance the site and I think it's great to see artists so crucial to prog development like the Beatles here that all can write about. There have been new catagories suggested, i.e. Influential Albums, that could work as reference only, but not PP or PR.

Edited by Atavachron - January 24 2007 at 04:17

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: January 24 2007 at 03:51

One slight correction to Ivan's post. Reviews with less than 50 words (actually 200 letters) are not deleted, the they are jsut treated as ratings without reviews. The text is retained, but not shown.

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: January 24 2007 at 00:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The T wrote:

Guidelines: "Reviews should be a MINIMUM 50 words preferably substantially more, no maximum."

So how can we have less than 50 word reviews? NO WORD reviews?

T, there are no reviews with less than 50 words and of course no review without words If a review has 49 words, the system automaticly deletes them and considers it a RATING WITHOUT REVIEW, this RWR have a lower weight in the charts, for example (not exact because I don't know the formula) if a rating with review is multiplied by 2 the RWR only has a 1 weight and a Collaborator Review is multiplied by 3.

So the site gives the guidelines and the system rejects every review with less than 50 words, so you will never see them in the front page or in the archive of reviews.

I'm saying this because that is a EXPLICIT recommendation that isn't followed...

Well, it's not only followed but also mandatory, if you do one, you will never see it in the front page, in the archives and it's weight for the charts will be 1/2 of a normal 50 + words review despíte you may be a Special Collaborator or even an Administrator.

Now, to the topic. Ivan said we can't review a prog-related album with a 5. I'd say: It doesn't say so in the guidelines. Of course I know LOGIC will say: if the 5-star rating means "a masterpiece of progressive music", then we shouldn't be giving 5 stars to an album we don't completely agree is progressive. But then again, and only reading the text itself, it doesn't say "progressive rock music", but "progressive music", so I think we could interpret the rule as saying "you have to consider the album progressive in your view and a masterpiece", not as saying "DOES IT AGREE WITH THE DEFINITION OF PROG?"

The site has already defined that, Symphonic Prog, Prog Metal, Prog Folk. etc are PROG SUB-GENRES. Prog Related has a specific word and adjective RELATED...in other words not Prog but with SOME relation.

So if the site is already saying "Hey pals, this bands are not Prog only have some relation" and the definition is also transparent, there's nothing to object.

Maybe the case would be different if the name was Light Prog or Pop Prog (Sounds like a natural contradiction to me), the qualification of the site for this bands would leave some doubts because we will be accepting that some Pop bands are also Prog.

But the word RELATED is 100% accurate.

BTW: Before posting your review you need to mark an X in "I agree with Propg Archive's guidelines" so if you don't act according them, your reviews may be deleted.

Of course, if we interpret furthermore and go to the SPIRIT of the rule, probably it was meant as to signify "progressiveROCK music"... but again, the rule is ambiguous so I think we perfectly can give 5 stars to a prog related album.

The name of the category (NOT A SUB-GENRE) is clear RELATED.

The prog-related genre is necessary to build a bridge between mainstream and prog, some artists should be here and some in the other shore (as I said about Peter Gabriel), but now that we have the genre, shouldn't we be allowed to give it the same rating treatment as to the others?

I agree it's necessary, in other case Roxy Music, Be Bop Deluxe, STYX, etc would have no place here and IMHO they made Prog accesible toi the majority of the public, so they deserve a space here.

But we can't consider them peers in Prog with King Crimson, VDGG, Early Genesis, Yes, etc...because they are "harina de otro costal" (flour of another sack), those are mainstream bands (mainly) who in some point of their career had an approach to Prog but never formed part of the genre.

But again this is M@X and Ronnie's call, it's their site and their decision, being that they have created a great site, we must agree they have taken the correct decisions.

As we say in Perú and most surely in all Latin America "Donde manda Capitán, no manda Marinero" (Where there is a Captain, the sailor has no voice) and the Captains have spoken so we must accept it because those are the rules and we knew them when we joined.

Iván

Somebody said that his can't be applied because it would be retoractive..That's not necessarilly accurate, during one period we were allowed to give 0 stars ratings to some albums, I remember giving no stars to ABACAB, GENESIS (SHAPES), INVISIBLE TOUCH, BIG GENERATOR and a couple more, but when the rule was changed, the system automaticly changed my 0 stars to 1 star, and of course I had to accept it, being that the owners must always have the last word in the internal policy of the site and in this case it's a bit harsh to say your album is worth nothing.

Man, it must be a pain in the ass to be against you as a lawyer!

OK, as a collaborator or more, you know that, I didn't. (I reallly haven't counted word-for-word...first mistake, you have to prove your evidence is good, don't you?

)

About the related thing, I stay on my position that the guidelines are like an ambiguous article in a Law that the legislator didn't write with utmost clarity so that the lawyer and then the judger have to interpret its meaning.

But you said it right: donde manda capitan, no manda marinero. Y teniendo en cuenta que ni siquiera conozco al capitan, mi posicion es de polizonte.

But having that in mind, I can still post 5star reviews for prelated, as the owners don't complain! No problem anyway, I still haven't find the album that deserves that rating and is prog related...(actually, I was thinking in doing that with UP or Muse's latest). Let's see.

But a 0 star rating, I wouldn't complain about that!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: January 23 2007 at 19:00

The T wrote:

Guidelines: "Reviews should be a MINIMUM 50 words preferably substantially more, no maximum."

So how can we have less than 50 word reviews? NO WORD reviews?

So if the site is already saying "Hey pals, this bands are not Prog only have some relation" and the definition is also transparent, there's nothing to object.

But the word RELATED is 100% accurate.

BTW: Before posting your review you need to mark an X in "I agree with Propg Archive's guidelines" so if you don't act according them, your reviews may be deleted.

I agree it's necessary, in other case Roxy Music, Be Bop Deluxe, STYX, etc would have no place here and IMHO they made Prog accesible toi the majority of the public, so they deserve a space here.

But again this is M@X and Ronnie's call, it's their site and their decision, being that they have created a great site, we must agree they have taken the correct decisions.

Iván

andu

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089

Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:30

I think Ivan's idea is good, it has my vote (and for T's sake, we'll change the guideline for the 5 stars rating into "Masterpiece of prog" Wink

). That not impossible to comply to; for example I'm preparing to make a review of the full Zeppelin discography, it's my favourite band by far, every zepp item (and I mean even the poorest bootleg) gives me a 5 star experience; but I am not going to rate with 5 stars any of their releases, not on this site; from about 15 releases, maybe four or five gould get from me the four star rating... Nothing more. There can be objectivity, yes.
However, I think it's impossible to get it done because it can't be applied retroactive.

Edited by andu - January 23 2007 at 17:34

Tony R

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979

Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:27

cmidkiff wrote:

Tony R wrote:

@cmidkiff

We like threads to be in the right place. Otherwise we end up with chaos.Consistency is also important.Many members believe their thread is crucial and get upset when it is moved to the appropriate forum. If every thread was started in one forum most threads would be lost forever in a matter of hours.

I know WHY you want it to be in the Prog Lounge and I have some sympathy with that,but this thread is not new news. We are well aware that there is unease about Prog and Non-Prog sharing the frontpage, the Top 100 poll etc, many collabs and some Admin share this unease.
The man upstairs however wants it the way it is now. The Admin Team continue to update him with feedback about this and a host of other subjects and he is aware of the level of feeling but he doesnt share the level of emotion this subject stirs up.He doesnt really understand why people get so worked up about this. Of course it's his site and he has the final say.

I feel the correct zone for this is in the "Help Us Improve The Site" Forum.

-- My guess would be that ultimately it brings more traffic to the site.

I dont doubt that but I dont believe that is the real issue regardless of how you interpret the benefits of bringing "more traffic to the site".

I think the real issue is whether Prog-Related/Proto should be allowed equal prominance with real Prog....

Again Max wants to see reviews for Proto/Prog -Related on the frontpage but as The T mentions there are real problems with giving these albums 5 stars, it doesnt seem logical to award Rainbow Rising 5 stars, as a progressive music masterpiece, on a Prog site does it?
Same with the Top 100, ok it is based on ratings but do we need to have Proto/Prog-Related albums in there?

We have to balance the financial needs of the Site with the need to be a genuine Prog resource. It makes sense on both counts to include prog-Related bands but to what degree?
Where is the happy medium?
What other ways are there of drawing visitors to the site?

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:16

Guidelines: "Reviews should be a MINIMUM 50 words preferably substantially more, no maximum."

So how can we have less than 50 word reviews? NO WORD reviews?

I'm saying this because that is a EXPLICIT recommendation that isn't followed...

Now, to the topic. Ivan said we can't review a prog-related album with a 5. I'd say: It doesn't say so in the guidelines. Of course I know LOGIC will say: if the 5-star rating means "a masterpiece of progressive music", then we shouldn't be giving 5 stars to an album we don't completely agree is progressive. But then again, and only reading the text itself, it doesn't say "progressive rock music", but "progressive music", so I think we could interpret the rule as saying "you have to consider the album progressive in your view and a masterpiece", not as saying "DOES IT AGREE WITH THE DEFINITION OF PROG?" Of course, if we interpret furthermore and go to the SPIRIT of the rule, probably it was meant as to signify "progressiveROCK music"... but again, the rule is ambiguous so I think we perfectly can give 5 stars to a prog related album.

The prog-related genre is necessary to build a bridge between mainstream and prog, some artists should be here and some in the other shore (as I said about Peter Gabriel), but now that we have the genre, shouldn't we be allowed to give it the same rating treatment as to the others?

Edited by The T - January 23 2007 at 17:19

cmidkiff

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 208

Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:14

The "Help Us Improve The Site" Forum is a more accurate location, its just that it won't allow the voting option.

I think I understand why the man upstairs doesn't get as emotional about it and wants it this way. -- My guess would be that ultimately it brings more traffic to the site.

cmidkiff

Tony R

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979

Posted: January 23 2007 at 17:02

@cmidkiff

We like threads to be in the right place. Otherwise we end up with chaos.Consistency is also important.Many members believe their thread is crucial and get upset when it is moved to the appropriate forum. If every thread was started in one forum most threads would be lost forever in a matter of hours.

I know WHY you want it to be in the Prog Lounge and I have some sympathy with that,but this thread is not new news. We are well aware that there is unease about Prog and Non-Prog sharing the frontpage, the Top 100 poll etc, many collabs and some Admin share this unease.
The man upstairs however wants it the way it is now. The Admin Team continue to update him with feedback about this and a host of other subjects and he is aware of the level of feeling but he doesnt share the level of emotion this subject stirs up.He doesnt really understand why people get so worked up about this. Of course it's his site and he has the final say.

I feel the correct zone for this is in the "Help Us Improve The Site" Forum.

Edited by Tony R - January 23 2007 at 17:04

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:53

I want to expand my reply:

I.- I agree with Tony, it's necessary a link from Mainstream to Prog and that's Prog Related, I don't have any problem with Proto Prog because this sub-genre is widely accepted and the bands there already have enough Prog elements.

A genre is not born in one song or one album it's a process and Proto Prog is the third step in this evolution:

Rock & Roll: There is not Prog without Rock & Roll butt we can't mention this bands becauise they still don't have enoough elements to be inclueded, despite this fact, everybody knows that Rock & Roll is the ancester of Progressive Rock.
Psychedelia: Not Prog yet but the transition has begun, already some of the bands from this genre have enough elements to be mentioned, groups like Sweetw@ter (The name is censored because an absurd bot) that has Symphonic and Fusion characteristics.
Proto Prog: It's the direct bridge between Psychedelia and Prog, already thids bands are Prog, like it or not.

II.- I believe there should be some limitations in Prog Related:

We shouldn't make a priority adding this bands, this bands will fall almost by accident or because it's unavoidable, but try to limit the addition as much as possible.
Ask people to accept the guidelines, no Prog Related album should be rated with 5 stars because no Prog Related album is essential for a Progressive Rock collection for the simple reason that is not pure Prog, 4 stars is Ok because there are albums in Prog Related that are good additioons like STYX I for example.
If people insist in rating Prog Related albums with 5 stars, the site may disable the 5 stars option from Prog Related, I don't know if this is possible, only an idea.

Opinions please?

Iván

cmidkiff

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 208

Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:51

Tony R wrote:

I think there is merit in the idea of completely seperating Proto/Prog-Related bands from the real Prog bands,however these "artificial" genres are here to act as a stepping stone from rock to Prog Rock.
Meaning: someone who likes the longer "epics" of Iron Maiden might just discover Dream Theater or other Prog-Metal bands by being drawn here. They see the "metal" part of the tag "prog-metal" and listen to some of the Mp3s.They like what they hear and little by little they get drawn into the world of Prog,join the forum and discover the broad spectrum of Prog Rock.

Ok,so this might only happen 1 in every 2000 hits but we get more than 50000 hits per day so maybe its worth it.

This might sound fanciful but its worth it if it works.

It most likely is worth it, but like I said before I'm not saying to git rid of them.
Its just not very accurate to list "Abby Road"(as good of an album as it is) in the top 100 on a Progressive site.
I'm still curious how the rest of the members feel about this. Any chance of moving this back into the general polls forum?

cmidkiff

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 08 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 208

Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:50

WaywardSon wrote:

I voted keep it the way it is. I like the idea of proto/related used as a big net to lure people to Progarchives.

In fact I would like to see a bigger net!! (I´m probably in the minority here)

I'm sure sex could lure more people in

Edited by cmidkiff - January 23 2007 at 16:53

cmidkiff

progismylife View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535

Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:29

What Tony says shows why these categories were included in the site, imo. Otherwise people would not be drawn to the site.

Edited by progismylife - January 23 2007 at 16:29

WaywardSon View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537

Posted: January 23 2007 at 16:29

I voted keep it the way it is. I like the idea of proto/related used as a big net to lure people to Progarchives.

In fact I would like to see a bigger net!! (I´m probably in the minority here)

Poll Question: Should Proto and Prog Related be a reference only?-See message below
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Be listed as reference only	9	[30.00%]
Keep them the way they are	21	[70.00%]
Add "Prog Opposite" as another "Genre"	0	[0.00%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted