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chamberry View Drop Down
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Points: 9008 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: What's progressive about 1964?
    Posted: August 28 2006 at 18:29
Hmmm. That's very interesting to say the least. I hate it when we have to write history again. The same goes for the rumors I've heard about Chinesse discovering America first than Cristobal Colon...

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Points: 393 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 23:36
never really thought about 64 as such a progressive year til now
 
not saying i agree quite yet, but im thinking about it.
 
verry good points you have thoughClap
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 16:18
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by chamberry chamberry wrote:

1964 - Terry Riley composes In C wich is concidered to be the first minimalist composition.
 
yup that is another goodieWink
 
Less minimalist but also much more interesting is 68's A Rainbow In Curved Air
 
 
 
 
 


Hate to tell you but I've read some authorative reference,( maybe Groves Music Dictionary), that minimalism can be traced back to the early 40's. If I remember correctly, it was stated that a woman composer wrote the earliest identifiable piece of minimalism in 1943.

But then where ever you look for a trustworthy reference, e.g.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_701610421/Minimalism_(music).html

they muddy the water more.......

Interesting to see the word minimalism is supposed to invented in 1968 -  however, we were certainly calling it 'cyclic music', including that heard at the performance of minimalist compositions (e.g. by Riley, Souster) heard in first half of the Pop Proms of 1970, that the Soft Machine performed in the second half. BTW I've asked this many times, but who played in that first set - my memory suggests Tim Souster, Mike Ratledge for sure but did Jon Lord turn up as well?
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 05:27
Originally posted by chamberry chamberry wrote:

1964 - Terry Riley composes In C wich is concidered to be the first minimalist composition.
 
yup that is another goodieWink
 
Less minimalist but also much more interesting is 68's A Rainbow In Curved Air
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sean Trane - August 27 2006 at 05:28
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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chamberry View Drop Down
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Points: 9008 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 01:27
1964 - Terry Riley composes In C wich is concidered to be the first minimalist composition.

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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2006 at 15:33
Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

1964 was the year that Daevid Allen met up with Gilli Smyth and the pair started writing songs together. The previous year Allen had palyed in a trio with Robert Wyatt (whose parents he lodged with at the time) and Hugh Hopper. Hugh Hopper apparently did some experiments with tape loops with Allen in 1964, and also formed the Wilde Flowers with his brother Brian, Robert Wyatt, Kevin Ayers and Richard Sinclair.
 
All in all, a pivotal year for the Canterbury scene.
 
On the jazz scene, as well as the release of Coltrane's mighty A Love Supreme (and don't forget his excellent album Crescent from the same year), Herbie Hancock took time out from playing with Miles Davis to record the wonderful Empyrean Isles, and Eric Dolphy released Out To Lunch just before he died.
 
1964 was also the year that Zappa joined The Soul Giants, shortly to be renamed The Mothers.
 
I think we are reading the same OBR book, chrisLOL
let's just stay above the moral melee
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keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2006 at 09:49
1964 was the year that Daevid Allen met up with Gilli Smyth and the pair started writing songs together. The previous year Allen had palyed in a trio with Robert Wyatt (whose parents he lodged with at the time) and Hugh Hopper. Hugh Hopper apparently did some experiments with tape loops with Allen in 1964, and also formed the Wilde Flowers with his brother Brian, Robert Wyatt, Kevin Ayers and Richard Sinclair.
 
All in all, a pivotal year for the Canterbury scene.
 
On the jazz scene, as well as the release of Coltrane's mighty A Love Supreme (and don't forget his excellent album Crescent from the same year), Herbie Hancock took time out from playing with Miles Davis to record the wonderful Empyrean Isles, and Eric Dolphy released Out To Lunch just before he died.
 
1964 was also the year that Zappa joined The Soul Giants, shortly to be renamed The Mothers.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom


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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2006 at 08:56
Originally posted by Epitath Epitath wrote:

This shows us, once again, that beatles were and are the creators of prog! Cheers!


Comeon I thought there was plenty of evidence provided above to show that no one band was the creator of prog!
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Points: 127 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2006 at 19:36
This shows us, once again, that beatles were and are the creators of prog! Cheers!
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2006 at 18:53
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Just realised that The Beach Boys' "Little Deuce Coupe" from '63 actually is a concept album (the first?) centred round cars. Ofcourse before that their albums focused on surfing - don't know them well enough to call these concept albums also. So a progression in pop music can be traced back earlier than '64.
 
BB's "All Summer long" from '64 contains "I get around" with a somewhat sophisticated arrangement and the album uses xylophone and horns.


I thought Jan & Dean had quite an influence on the BB's about that time, and certainly into dragsters first (one of them even had a very nasty motor accident because of their love of souped up motors and high speed - I think even sung about it in Deadman's Curve).
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Points: 2133 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2006 at 16:37
Just realised that The Beach Boys' "Little Deuce Coupe" from '63 actually is a concept album (the first?) centred round cars. Ofcourse before that their albums focused on surfing - don't know them well enough to call these concept albums also. So a progression in pop music can be traced back earlier than '64.
 
BB's "All Summer long" from '64 contains "I get around" with a somewhat sophisticated arrangement and the album uses xylophone and horns.
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Points: 5296 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 18:59
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

64 >>> A Love Supreme



Amazing album! I agree! Extremely progressive, influential, and awe-inspiring.
    
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 18:55
I thought Magma (Zeuhl) and lots of jazz rock in general was influenced by these early avantgarde jazz albums. I'm no expert and can't write in technical terms. I might be wrong, but I'm almost certain I've read and seen these titles mentioned several times as influential on the more experimental side of prog.

The thread asks 'What's progressive about 1964?' and I think all three albums qualify.
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 07:36
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Two of my newly purchaced jazz favorites are from '64. Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch and Herbie Hancock: Empyrean Isles.

The complex avantgardejazz especially of the former together with: John Coltrane: A Love Supreme, also from '64, are two of the most influential jazzalbums on progressive rock. 
 
Forgive me, you use the term "influential" but could you please develop this idea for this particular thread - with these examples who was influenced, where do you see/hear the influence in later music? A Love Supreme is more well documented - e.g. Soft Machine acknowledging Coltrane in their Pop Prom concert notes, Roger McGuinn adopting the stream of notes approach for the original RCA recording of 8 Miles High, later Allan Holdsworth employing the same concept for parts of his instantly identifiable jazz fusion guitar work. As I've said before the polyrhythmic/multi-signatures used by D Brubeck Quartet - driven by drummer Joe Morello - are more obvious in early prog .
 
BTW Out To Lunch, A Love Supreme and (DBQ's) Time Out featured in Jazzwise's recent One Hundred Influential Jazz Albums poll.


Edited by Dick Heath - August 23 2006 at 07:38
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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 05:19
64 >>> A Love SupremeHeart
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 05:14
Two of my newly purchaced jazz favorites are from '64. Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch and Herbie Hancock: Empyrean Isles.

The complex avantgardejazz especially of the former together with: John Coltrane: A Love Supreme, also from '64, are two of the most influential jazzalbums on progressive rock. 
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 04:52
I think I mentioned Alan Price in passing - but more the the R'N'B boom in the UK - Stones, Animals, Manfred Mann, Pretty Things etc. later.
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Points: 1475 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2006 at 02:13
The Animals release House of the rising sun, a hit with a dominating organ sound in the instrumentation.

Edited by Dragon Phoenix - August 23 2006 at 02:14
Blog this:
http://artrock2006.blogspot.com
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2006 at 10:04
Sean and all
 
Now been able to make a few minor changes to typos and additions (which I tried to do a few hours ago without luck - my PC and the PA site lack full compatibility), but I don't think it changes the context to which you were responding. 
 
British trad or dixieland jazz, as well as those glorious patiches of 20's jazz from Temperance Seven (who in part influenced the Bonzos), were regularly charting in the UK - doesn't Acker Bilk still hold the record from the longest period of a single was in the UK charts? However, the then unusual 5:4 of Dave Brubeck Quartet's Take Five single, influenced a lot of young musicians, which meant DBQ's albums were bought and absorbed. As I've said before I hear a few direct roots back from Nice's Ars Longa Vita Brevis to DBQ's Live At Carnegie Hall double album (which oddly has only been issued, remastered on CD by Sony Columbia in the last 3 years).
 
As to folk and prog - check out an excellent read:
Dazzling Stranger: Bert Jansch and the British Folk and Blues Revival by Colin Harper
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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2006 at 07:08
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Ignore the British love affair with black American R'N'B (e.g. Chess urban Chicago bluesrecordings and the earlier delta blues). The Beatles may have had a love affair with Tamla and soul, and Anglisising it but others were developing a harder edge by borrowing and using staighter blues in their pop (so slowly becoming rock), which the Fab 4 borrowed later and turned into their own thing.
 
In the second part of the excellent BBC 4 documentary last year Jazz Britannia, dealing with the roots of British jazz rock, said a lot about young jazz musicians forced to go electric by their older peers, and appealing to the youth market from the early 60's. Therefore Graham Bond, Georgie Fame, Alan Price can't be ignored as providing a forcing ground for musicians who evolved the jazz blues rock, indeed the likes of Alexis Korner and John Mayall for the blue purists.
 
Earlyprog, See the link below where we had a discussion about this
 
 
Ewen McColl seemed to have the folk scene in a traditional limbo from the mid 50's to the mid 60's   - ditto his brother-in-law Pete Seeger in the USA - until the likes of Davey Graham broke free, taking with him John Renbourne and Bert Jansch (influential on Jimmy Page). The electric work of the young Richard Thompson in Fairport helped to open the split between the traditionalists and the new .
 
I'd have to agree that a good deal of progressiveness in music in the early to mid-60's came from jazz (that's obvious) but also folk and soon to be folk-rock.
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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