Odd Time Signatures

Hierophant wrote: Most of what I heard from Meshuggah is in 4/4 with way over the top syncopationOne thing I can't stand is bands using time signatures with little or no melodic development and just tastelessly pounding out the time signature almost as if to say "hey look we're playing in 7/8!", anyone can add or take away an eighth note or two, the real skill comes in actually feeling the time signature and playing comfortably. The musical phrasings should dictate what type of rhythms should be used, not the other way around - it's no wonder that many bands wind up sounding like droning machines rather than actually conveying musical ideas. I'm not refering to any band in particular here, but it seems to be like some sort of trend - to grind out those weird time signatures without the music to back it up.

I love Jethro Tull for that... they always make you forget they are using odd time signatures or time shifts... Heavy Horses' chorus has amazing use time shifts, starting from 4/4 and then adding 3+4/4 and then 4+2/4 (the +2 is at the song's climax).... but it doesn't seem to matter... the time signatures are meant to be there... unlike many Gentle Giant songs (e.g. knots... or almost every song in The Power and The Glory) where every time shift is sudden and show-offy ("hey look, we are using time shifts!!").. That's why I don't devote myself on collecting their entire discography.
    
    

Edited by Chus - December 13 2006 at 17:41

Zodiak wrote: Hey, guys, could you help? I know all the theory behind time signatures and seem to understand everything, but when it comes to actually working out the meter of a given song, I'm confused (well, of course I know 4/4 and 3/4 but not much beyond that). Could anyone explain in layman's terms how can I figure out the meter of a particular song? What do I listen to? Drums? Sorry, if this sounds stupid...

I'm not sure I can help since for me I just count it out and I eventually figure out what it is, so I don't really have any "clues."  All I can say is to first find the beat of the song and then find out where beat "one" is, then just count the beats in each measure.

Hey, guys, could you help?

I know all the theory behind time signatures and seem to understand everything, but when it comes to actually working out the meter of a given song, I'm confused (well, of course I know 4/4 and 3/4 but not much beyond that).

Could anyone explain in layman's terms how can I figure out the meter of a particular song? What do I listen to? Drums?

Sorry, if this sounds stupid...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: [QUOTE=Sasquamo]The weirdest time signature I've ever heard isn't even in prog.  It's on Don Ellis's big band record, Live at Monterey.  It's in 19/4, and the title of the tune says how to divide each measure: 33 222 1 222.  There's like 3 bassists bowing the main bassline on their acoustic basses, and two drummers.  And the horns actually solo in this time signature.  And it's live.  Wow. BTW: That Don Ellis song is pretty nice! It definitely works, and compared to the DT song it's more a real time signature (while the DT song's middle part is rather a complex sequence of odd "standard" sigs). It's available on Napster too!

penguindf12 wrote: I've gotten to where I do 5/4 and 7/8 as naturally as 4/4 (as in I'll just be siting there tapping my feet mindlessly, and then in retrospect realize it was in 7), but I like to think I've grown out of using odd time sigs just for their own sake. I mean, really. It's really quite arbitrary at some points, but others, it can be entirely necessary and cool. But especially when someone forces a song into a predetermined meter, it just sounds...forced. Like Apocalypse in 9/8. Boo. It's just such a good setup, and then...bum bum BUM bum BOM bum bum bum BUM!!!! I mean, come on. It's a bit sad really; it's like the later works of the Residents. Idea first, music second. Doesn't stand up (I feel the same way about 'neo-prog'). That said, I love odd time signatures when used appropriately. For me, 7/8's crowning moment is Soft Machine's b-side suite on "Volume Two" ("Pig", "Orange Skin Food", "A Door Opens and Closes", "10:30 Returns to the Bedroom"), and of course "As Long as He Lies Perfectly Still". In fact, now that I think about it, most of that album is in 7! Let's see, uh..., "A Pataphysical Introduction" (Pts. I and II), "Hibou, Anenome, and Bear", the first bit of "Thank You Pierrot Lumiere"...all in 7/8! Then there's "Out of Tunes" in 5, but that's beside the point... anyway, what was I talking about again? Oh well.

Actually, no. They are not all in 7/8, "10:30 Returns to the Bedroom" is in 9/8. And it's obvious that Wyatt can't sing in those time measures, just listen carefully his voice after "Concise British Alphabet", it's hilarious! But it's also charming. Oh, I love that band!

I would also like to point out "Thick as a brick", that hard-rocking part "see there! a son is born" is in 5/4, and literally half an hour later, when the bend is repeating the sequence, the same part is in 12/8. Nothing special, but I like those kind of details...

Personally, I never had any problems with 7/8, 9/8 or 5/4. I don't count, I just feel. But I guess I'm lucky because I am from Balkans where a dumbest drunken footbal hooligan could sing and clap his hands in 7/8

 

I love the use of extreme odd time signatures in my songs. Our band has lots of changing time signatures in each song, some are like 19/16 and so on but it is a pleasure to play such stuff and it sounds very good in my opinion... 

The weirdest time signature I've ever heard isn't even in prog.  It's on Don Ellis's big band record, Live at Monterey.  It's in 19/4, and the title of the tune says how to divide each measure: 33 222 1 222.  There's like 3 bassists bowing the main bassline on their acoustic basses, and two drummers.  And the horns actually solo in this time signature.  And it's live.  Wow.

Vibrationbaby wrote: You guys are all too simple. check out some of John McLaughlin`s stuff in 11/8 in wierd keys.

    

Grow up

I've gotten to where I do 5/4 and 7/8 as naturally as 4/4 (as in I'll just be siting there tapping my feet mindlessly, and then in retrospect realize it was in 7), but I like to think I've grown out of using odd time sigs just for their own sake. I mean, really. It's really quite arbitrary at some points, but others, it can be entirely necessary and cool. But especially when someone forces a song into a predetermined meter, it just sounds...forced. Like Apocalypse in 9/8. Boo. It's just such a good setup, and then...bum bum BUM bum BOM bum bum bum BUM!!!! I mean, come on. It's a bit sad really; it's like the later works of the Residents. Idea first, music second. Doesn't stand up (I feel the same way about 'neo-prog'). That said, I love odd time signatures when used appropriately. For me, 7/8's crowning moment is Soft Machine's b-side suite on "Volume Two" ("Pig", "Orange Skin Food", "A Door Opens and Closes", "10:30 Returns to the Bedroom"), and of course "As Long as He Lies Perfectly Still". In fact, now that I think about it, most of that album is in 7! Let's see, uh..., "A Pataphysical Introduction" (Pts. I and II), "Hibou, Anenome, and Bear", the first bit of "Thank You Pierrot Lumiere"...all in 7/8! Then there's "Out of Tunes" in 5, but that's beside the point... anyway, what was I talking about again? Oh well.

One of the more interesting time signatures I`ve heard lately is Sieges Even.  Sometimes it seems they use Pascal or Fibonacci series, rather than arithmetic bar counts, changing rythm form one bar to the next (hmmm... sounds like my college days ?)