In Defence of Neo-Prog

This thread has taken on a life of its own.

Easy Livin - Thanks for the support.  My point in beginning this thread was that, if not for bands such as Marillion, this forum might be reduced to reviews of the new Britney Spears album.

I feel that the reviews are most useful when a listener is interested in trying a new band or genre.  As a Genesis fan for example, I know what disks I like and why I like them.  Its interesting to see what other people think, but not necessary useful.

What is useful for me is when I'm thinking about trying a new band for the first time.  By reading the reviews for IQ, for example, I realized that I wanted to start with a disk with Peter Nicholls on vocals, as that seemed to be the general feeling of most of the other listeners.  As a result, I bought Dark Matter and thoroughloy enjoyed it, and I intend to dig deeper into more of their work. Being in the US, its tough to find their stuff.

I recently posted my first review (Mike Oldfield's "Amarok").  My intent was for someone not familiar with the piece to be able to decide if it was right for them.  I hope I succeeded.  In that vein, I think its imperitive for fans and non-fans to post reviews.  If I know why someone didn't like something, I can decide if I might fall into that category myself.

Keep the reviews coming from everyone! The debate and the differences of opinion are what makes life interesting!

Reed Lover wrote: “…so what is the point?”

One of the points is this: that album has 29 5-star ratings, 3 4-star ratings, 2 3-star ratings and 2 2-star ratings (one of the latter being Peter Rideout’s). To put it another way, 81% think the album is a masterpiece and 89% think the album is excellent at worst. If only people who like an album review it then how can I, as someone who knows precious little about it, hope to gain a balanced opinion? It is useful if people from various age groups (including, hopefully, my own) comment on an album. It is useful if people with various musical tastes (including, hopefully, my own) comment on an album. It is useful if people with different moral perspectives comment on an album. I want diversity of opinion. I want polemic. I want to hear all views, all sides of the argument. I don’t want, say, 100 people all with the same tastes, all from the same age group, all with the same background, all with the same morals, telling me an album is marvellous. I want to know what others think of it; others who might represent my tastes and views. They may happen to like it, which may encourage me to listen to it, or even buy it.

Additionally, polemic - including didactic comments such as those in Peter Rideout’s review - may actually stimulate curiosity. I actually listened to the album after reading his review – I was piqued and wanted to hear what all the fuss was about. I'm not going to say what I thought, but at some point I will review the album (after I get through the pile I already have earmarked for review).

And lastly, although he did not dissect the music track by track, there is enough information in the review to tell me about the style of music, what he thinks of the singer, the lyrics etc. In my opinion the review does not, as you state, merely say “I’m a middle aged man and it says nothing to me.”

I don’t want to get too sidetracked onto that one review or one reviewer in particular, though. My general point, which I’m glad Iván shares, is that it is worthwhile to review albums (ergo bands) whether or not you like them. We sometimes have to comment on things we don’t like or agree with in all walks of life – why not music?

P.S. This is not a rant at you Reed Lover!

Pixel Pirate wrote:

think there's a danger of misrepresenting the band and album in question if the reviewer doesn't like the band in the first place. I wouldn't really know how to be fair to a band I didn't like.

In that line of thuinking it wouldn't be fair to review bands and albums you love, because in that case you would give more credit than they deserve.

That's why I believe we should try to review every gender of music we reasonably understand even if we hate a determined band. A good reviewer woudn't throw $h¡t to a band that is good even if he doesn't like them,

Even if the reviewer is unfair this would be easy to notice in a place as ProgArchives, if 20 reviews say it's a great album and only one says it's crap, then the reviewer is being unfair and too subjective, but in most cases the reviews and ratings are ballanced.

I don't like most of King Crimson, but I won't dare to give Red (for example) less than 3 stars (Maybe I'll give 2 to Thrakk or Bboom) because it's clear for me that even if they are not my cup of tea, the touch of the genius is present.

But I won't give more than one star to a 3 men Genesis album like Invisible Touch or Shapes (Mama) and that would not be unfair if you notice that most of the reviews are similar.

Iván

If it's a considered onslaught, I look forward to it!

I agree entirely with Iván's statement that a reviewer should not just review albums from bands he likes.

Hibou, your example of Dream Theater is apposite: did you read Peter Rideout's review of "Scenes From A Memory Metropolis Part II" a while back? Peter apparently does not like the sub-genre nor the album, and his review even generated some discussion in this forum at the time. However, I think his review of that album is useful - and I'm glad he posted it - because it is helpful for readers to see 'both sides of a coin'.

When I read-up on an album with which I'm not familiar, I would like to have opinions from all parts of the spectrum, not just from people who are fans of the band or of the sub-genre. That way I may be warned not to get an album or, alternatively, that it is something fresh and new and would appeal to fans of other sub-genres as well.

ivan_2068 wrote: ...if the reviewer honestly believes a determined album is crap, he has the moral obligation to tell people what he honestly believes. Iván

I agree 100 % with you about this, Yván. We definitely shouldn't give an automatic 4 or 5 stars to bands we love. It happens far too often and it is totally unfair to readers. What I mean is that by reviewing bands we like - to start with - we at least know what we're talking about (at least I hope we do!). From there, we, the reviewer, should have the honesty to rate the albums accordingly. I've personally given a crappy rating (2 stars) to bands I hold in the highest esteem (Fish, Genesis, the Flower Kings, Lands End, even my god incarnate, Tony Banks).

On the other hand, I wouldn't even venture into reviewing any Dream Theater albums. Why? Not being a big metal fan, I'd probably give their best albums 2 or 3 stars at most. Any reader interested in seeing how DT fares on this or that album would therefore get a totally wrong impression. He'd know what I think alright, but not what a TD connaisseur thinks (assuming the connaisseur was honest in his review).

Hibou wrote:

Which brings the question: should we be reviewing albums whose genres we really don't like? I personally wouldn't but like you say, Greenback, to each his own business...

Here I strongly (but respectfully) disagree with you Hibou, a person can’t be called a good reviewer if he only does articles about the bands he likes, this would be too easy, listen an album you love, make a review and rate between 4 or 5 stars every album. Surely everybody will love this reviews, because every proghead wants to read praises about their favourite bands, but this is not serious.

A reviewer is here to help other people with their knowledge about a determined album, if it’s a masterpiece, ok, give 4 or 5 stars, but if the reviewer honestly believes a determined album is crap, has the moral obligation to tell people what he honestly believes.

I would have thanked anyone who told me that OVO was not a typical Gabriel album before I bought it and threw it into my closet with the CD’s I never listen. I bought it only for the name of Peter Gabriel and because I like all his albums but honestly hated OVO.

So, it’s ok if you review music or genres you don't like, if mot all reviews would have 5 stars and this wouldn't help anybody.

Iván

Hello Hugues,

Very cool of you to respond despite the fact you’re not officially logged in.

About my posting your review to illustrate lobster41’s comment: I could have picked anyone’s review, really. But I’m glad I picked yours because you gave us one ‘Mother’ of a response (as you said). I may not agree with everything you say - or even the way you rate your albums - but at least I understand a bit better the reasoning behind it.

As for this perennial "prog vs neo-prog" thing: it seems to me the human race is forever inventing new dichotomies and I’m afraid we’re stuck with this one for a while. The best we can do is try and stick together as progsters by sparing our respective sensibilities as much as possible. I guess that’s what this thread is about, eh?

BTW, I do find your reviews a bit severe for my own tastes but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them. Boring is never a word that comes to mind!

Ciao 

Lise

POSTED by Hugues (Aka Sean Trane)
PROG ARCHIVES Collaborators

Hello Lobster 41 and everybody else on this thread,

I wish to intervene since one of my reviews has been invoked (although by
Lise-Hibou and not the originator of this thread). I do not put down
neo-prog as a genre although, you are right, I am no great fan. Usually when
I rate an album 3*, that means Good But Non-Essential. When I rate an album
2* it means For Fans Only, that means fans will enjoy this album but
non-fanatics (such as I) should prefer another album or another band if no
album is above 2* in their discography. I, unlike many people take great
care in the numbers of stars I award (I would rather use the Gnosis
non-linear scale of 0 to 15 - I have not seen a better rating system albeit
a bit complicated) and I am very careful about albums that get 5*, but this
is hardly the case with the majority. If you go into the Collaborator page
and click onto the Profile of the Reviewers then look at the Reviews by
Ratings, you will see that most people never go down to 2* and most reviews
stay within the 4 or 5 regions. Am I the only one that buys prog albums I
don't appreciate? If I do buy an album after five or six minutes listening
in the record shop conditions (regular practice in Continental Europe) this
is still not enough to be satisfied at every shot once you are at home. I
get the feeling that some people cannot admit buying a Cd that they don't
like and will listen to it until they get used to it or find that this is
not so bad after all - I get rid of the stuff that I do not appreciate to
finance further my vice. I have the chance to live in Belgium where there is
a state-protected Mediatheque that allows to rent all sorts of medias
(filmed theater plays, rare and forgotten movies, music from all over the
world, etc..) because the state  believe that even the poorer  people should
have access to culture. Needless to say that this backfires because most
people go there to rent Mariah and Terminator but the renting of those
permits the system to acquire unusual stuff - most of the Cuneiform
catalogue is available on reservation and in one week it is at your closest
"Library".  I do take advantage of it and have heard literally thousands of
albums in all genre and therefore can judge on historical grounds the
importance of an album, a dimension I also allow in my ratings. This is also
why people, who do not understand how progressive bands like Cream,
Jefferson Airplane, Spirit, Traffic, Chicago Transit Authority, Audience
etc. are also progressive because of what those artist allowed by the sheer
ground-breaking, those people are short-sighted but also mostly neo fans,
those very same persons who do not like them being categorized. I had to
fight for months (in terms of emails to Max) about Tangerine Dream in this
site simply because they did not meet the requirement of people trying to
define prog rock. Enough of this, guys! Please accept neo as we all do other
names: do you think Germans appreciate the music from their country called
Krautrock (Kraut as in cabbage in reference to sauerkraut)?

I have many friends who would qualify as neo-progheads (I call myself a
proghead as I was a Deadhead in Grateful Dead concerts) and have had this
conversation tooooooo many times (although not in Progarchives, I must say)
and I am a bit tired of it. Neo-prog, as a genre, is acetate of classic prog
but should not be ashamed of it. During the 80's, I discovered musically the
60's (born in 63) though I partied hardy and was subjected to all sorts of
pop and some rock from the early 80's - Marillion's debut still ranks as a
5* but The Wake from IQ deserves less than when I discovered it and I hate
new wave. So yes, I might have a slight prejudice against 80's music due to
my personal history, but to me that particular period is hard to listen to
mostly because of the cheap synths, bands more preoccupied with their look
(should I mention that Hair Rock only existed in that decade) but also the
playing of the drums (Ginger Baker rules - on some Cream numbers he does not
even touch the snare drum). I think much of this anger (if you'll allow me
your call to arms in defence of something not directly attacked) comes from
the fact that neo-progheads love that particular style and the classic prog
equally and are frustrated that older progheads do not like it as much and
maybe dismissing it lightly, to the dismay of the irate neo-man. As for the
name neo, should fans of architecture of the Neo-classic or Neo-gothic
movement be angry because of that movement's name? As far as I am concerned,
(and I know most of us are) , I don't even like the word "progressive rock"
or even less prog , but I use them in terms that are easy for the readers to
comprehend. Another point I make under which neo-prog comes under my
criticism are those bogus concepts (heroic-fantasy or sci-fi - when Rush
started, OK but enough is enough, let's not kill a dead horse) where one
looks at Y&T or Molly Hatchet art sleeves for gleeful inspiration. Please
read my review of Sommerabend of Novalis to get a good laugh - I certainly
did writing it - and they do not qualify as neo-prog but rather as overly
symphonic. For that matter, very few groundbreaking in our beloved musical
movement since, say 75, and this is a sad state of affairs. Outside of
Paatos and GYBE!, who has broken new ground lately? Certainly not Twin Age.
That review also depends of my mood also. At the time, and I remember the
day before almost yelling at a neo-proghead friend that this very subject
(and especially the endless discussions where no-one will give in to the
other) should be closed or else he would become a Neo-enemy :).

As for being biased towards Francophone groups, one should read my reviews
on Ange and its clone bands to be less sure about that view. Also, please
note that only French and English (Dutch lyrics in prog I have yet top hear
other than in Poetica In Silencio - yes they are Dutch - and I am about to
investigate Spanish and South-American prog in the months to come but, you
guessed it , I'll start in the 70's)  lyrics are understood by yours truly
(this is probably why not many Italian groups appeal to me to the point of
giving more than 4*) and I do take in consideration the poetic nature (or
humorous - Hastings and Ian Anderson are absolute faves of mine along with
Peter The Gabe) for the ratings. Greenback, I may be severe but I also think
that most of the writers should also be - this to avoid deception following
a glowing review (""much ado about nothing" said the man). When I give a 5*,
I like to think it can be trusted. BTW, try Circus Movin' On, Maneige (if
you can find Les Porches- almost totally instrumental) or Sloche (mainly
instrumental), to see what a five star is all about.

I don't intervene much in the forum (I have yet to make my official
entry/log-in), I do read it, though. But when I do, as you can read, it is
one Mother of Intervention (to paraphrase Tull's Tramp about TAAB and a wink
to Zappa). Thanks for reading me in full and not take a sentence out of its
context. I will be back on Monday to read eventual reactions to this
message.


Progressively yours
Peace
Hugues Aka Sean Trane