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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986
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Topic: Would Yes be censored if...? Posted: October 31 2024 at 12:34 |
Logan wrote:
^^ Lorenzo. Sharing the music would be fine, especially if not exposing one's own biases or seeming to have an agenda other than sharing the music that you think others might be interested in or enjoy. I have inferred because you have made topics before on the subject of the song and not just from a music perspective. It's an agenda that you have demonstrated time and time again. Moderators look for patterns of behaviour, and it is obvious with you. We have a topic for mentioning videos in General Music Discussions. Had you not made a topic there then I would not have interfered. I also have changed my mind on locked topics, or an avatar recently which i had removed, when people have PMed me explaining their intentions.
I did not censor the music, I even properly embedded it and said how to do it. What I did do was censor any future discussion on it in the thread by locking the thread. The topic is visible. We made decisions as collaborators. If you have access to the collab zone, other Prog Reviewers do, then I suggest you present your case for changes there. I'd sit out of it until it develops, but of course if called on that it got to heated, I would have to deal with it. This stuff is time-consuming and believe me, I don't enjoy it one bit.
I suggest that we avoid politically charged and controversial topics here. |
Dear Greg, dear administrators, dear forum members
only authoritarian regimes, dictatorships, go to investigate ‘intentions’. In fact, Gorky went so far as to ban the novels of two of the greatest Russian writers of the 20th century: Bulgakov and Platonov (I highly recommend the latter, who is less well known than Bulgakov) because they were ironic about certain dynamics of Soviet Russia, so he suspected their intentions, but they were not actually anti-communist. Even the East German Stasi interrogated suspects to find out their intentions.
Civilised and democratic countries stick to their words and facts. Laws sanction certain words and certain facts regardless of intentions. Precisely because with the ‘trial of intentions’, one can attribute any intention that suits us to the one we want to punish.
But isn't this the logic of war? I bomb you, I destroy you because you have the intention of destroying me (I decide what your intentions of my supposed enemy are, so I am free to do what I want).
So, what my intention opening the thread BBOBBYY was is completely irrelevant. I posted a song that I think is important in today's landscape. I obviously wanted many to listen to it, and to see the video, that goes without saying. I made no political comment. These are the facts. Those who attribute to me intentions of wanting to make a political speech are committing an impropriety worthy of repressive authoritarian regimes (and this should give the forum administrators pause for thought).
I alone am authorised to explain my intentions. And I know that I had set out not to make any political comments on the song lyrics, because I gave up trying to discuss politics in this forum months ago. And that is also why I frequent the forum less and less.
If I wanted to use this song to make political speeches, I would have done so straight away, that has always been my style when I open a thread (if you don't believe it, go and check the old threads I opened). I predicted that the thread would have been closed because I imagined that some forumist would start talking about the lyrics of the song to polemicise and ask for the thread to be closed.
What I did not imagine was that the thread would be closed without any comment, attributing it to me or the song to be political. From here my question: if Yes have written this song what would have been happened? (a question that was not answered by anyone).
That is why I opened this thread. And this thread was instead opened by me with the intention of discussing how political censorship inevitably also leads to censorship of art. And I repeat: I would interest to listen to (and to analyze) any songs about Gaza and Israel, no matter the contents of the lyrics). But here this is not possible.
Now I'm going back to my hobby as a human rights activist. Because in reality, talking about international law, what the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court say about what is happening in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and what the duties of Israel and its allies (USA and EU) are, is not politics, but civic education on international legality.
In this forum, this discussion is not allowed.
As much as we can, I and other teachers do it at school with our students. And it was one of our students who pointed out the song by BBoBBYY to us. We saw it in class, we read the lyrics carefully because there are many quotes that need to be contextualized, we watched it again at half speed, because the editing is very fast and you can't see all the images well. And I think it's very well done. A song that in 4 minutes manages to condense a remarkable series of images and quotes with a good rhythm. That's why I think it's important. Are these last sentences of mine political or are they critical analyses of an artistic musical product?
So, I'm fine with this thread closing too. I've said what I had to say.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15119
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 12:34 |
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
Just stop it. Or I'll happily suspend both of you. |
That would be a pitty, and it was not my intention to start a discussion about the conflict.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20847
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 11:24 |
Just stop it. Or I'll happily suspend both of you.
Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - October 31 2024 at 11:25
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 11:20 |
I'd say, it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that does it. |
*Israeli-Hamas
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15119
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 11:18 |
Logan wrote:
^ It is stirring the pot.
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I'd say, it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that does it.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 09:48 |
Politics? Hmm...that was banned ages ago..
Edited by SteveG - October 31 2024 at 10:08
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35804
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 08:24 |
^ It is stirring the pot.
^^^ And there is no sanctuary.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15119
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 07:48 |
Hrychu wrote:
And the fact James Balwin's forum thread in which that BBOBBYY song was posted was clearly made with the intention to spark political talk and not a musical one doesn't help. The common grounds between the users of this forum are clearly based on the musical taste and not the political polarity. Almost as if James tried to deliberately make the users here start a flamewar. |
Do you really think so?
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 31 2024 at 07:13 |
The couple of people on this site who feel a burning need to push political propaganda don't seem to be interested in the site for anything other than that.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65255
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 22:13 |
Carousel is a lie.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13056
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 21:32 |
^ The level of disingenuousness you display regarding your intent reaches near farcical levels. I call bullsh*t here and now.
"This is an important song."
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:53 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Hrychu wrote:
And in fact I asked: What would happen if Yes wrote a political song or a political album about war in Ukraine or Middle East in this forum? | The only way to find out is to commission the remaining members of Yes to write such song and link it here. :v
I think your question was a bit manipulative. It's like you assumed the band Yes to be more of an authority to the prog rock forum crowd and those "dumb prog rockers" would be more likely to "buy" a moralizing message in a song from Yes rather than an underground hip hop band. |
As I tried to write some time ago in a thread, one of the greatest masterpieces of Italian prog, Zarathustra by Museo Rosenbach was actually censored in Italy by the music media because the group was considered fascist, which led to the band's disbandment and to a very slow reception of the album, only to be appreciated over the years.
Who was politicised, those who stigmatised it, or the musicians of the group, who moreover were not fascists at all and did not want to send political but existential messages?
So what would happen on this forum today if a big name in prog were to release a masterpiece, controversial album with political lyrics? If we had trouble talking about that album, we would risk misunderstanding a masterpiece.
Here, I pose questions that have to do with how to understand art, whatever its content, not with politics. |
Hyrchu writes: "And the fact James Balwin's forum thread in which that BBOBBYY song was posted was clearly made with the intention to spark political talk and not a musical one doesn't help. The common grounds between the users of this forum are clearly based on the musical taste and not the political polarity. Almost as if James tried to deliberately make the users here start a flamewar."
You have no elements to say this about me. This is a trial of intentions, and in the trial of intentions anyone can attribute any intention to a person they want to attack in order to justify their attack. It is a dishonest method, whereas an honest method is to stick to what one does and says.
But I see what you're getting at, the technique is always the same: attacking a person who hasn't attacked anyone personally and raising the tone of the discussion (even attributing to me the intention of stirring up a war between forumists) in such a way as to shut down the thread by then blaming me.
Now, I have known these methods for months now. It makes no difference to me, I take it for granted that this thread will be closed, but I point out that it's dishonest to attribute things to me that I dont say and that I dont do.
I have given up talking about politics here months ago.
Yesterday I only posted a song I like, without making any speeches. To attribute intentions of any other kind to me is the abc of impropriety. I would have no problem posting a song of the opposite orientation, lyrically, to the one posted, if I liked it. I repeat, I am for the free expression of all forms of art, in this site art is music, I consider political to claim to dictate what a certain form of art means and to select only some.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35804
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:44 |
^ Haha, love that cat and mouse Runner meets Sandmen scene.
If such topics keep "running", expect termination.
^^ The big issue has been pushing a political agenda. It's one thing to posit on the themes of prog music at a prog forum, it's another to push a message.
Edited by Logan - October 30 2024 at 19:50
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:36 |
Logan locking another thread be like:
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:34 |
Hrychu wrote:
And in fact I asked: What would happen if Yes wrote a political song or a political album about war in Ukraine or Middle East in this forum? | The only way to find out is to commission the remaining members of Yes to write such song and link it here. :v
I think your question was a bit manipulative. It's like you assumed the band Yes to be more of an authority to the prog rock forum crowd and those "dumb prog rockers" would be more likely to "buy" a moralizing message in a song from Yes rather than an underground hip hop band. |
As I tried to write some time ago in a thread, one of the greatest masterpieces of Italian prog, Zarathustra by Museo Rosenbach was actually censored in Italy by the music media because the group was considered fascist, which led to the band's disbandment and to a very slow reception of the album, only to be appreciated over the years.
Who was politicised, those who stigmatised it, or the musicians of the group, who moreover were not fascists at all and did not want to send political but existential messages?
So what would happen on this forum today if a big name in prog were to release a masterpiece, controversial album with political lyrics? If we had trouble talking about that album, we would risk misunderstanding a masterpiece.
Here, I pose questions that have to do with how to understand art, whatever its content, not with politics.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:29 |
And the fact James Balwin's forum thread in which that BBOBBYY song was posted was clearly made with the intention to spark political talk and not a musical one doesn't help. The common grounds between the users of this forum are clearly based on the musical taste and not the political polarity. Almost as if James tried to deliberately make the users here start a flamewar.
Edited by Hrychu - October 30 2024 at 19:30
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:26 |
Anyway, I think in that case the discussion would be way more interesting. And that has nothing to do with this forum's moderation. The band Yes is a strongly established brand amongst the members of this Progarchives community. Users here know the Yes catalogue in much greater detail than some random noname rapper BBOBBYY whose only notable song is a political protest song. So naturally, if a group of Yes fans on a prog rock forum see someone post a random out of place rap song, some might see that as something a bit suspicious.
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35804
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:22 |
^^ Lorenzo. Sharing the music would be fine, especially if not exposing one's own biases or seeming to have an agenda other than sharing the music that you think others might be interested in or enjoy. I have inferred because you have made topics before on the subject of the song and not just from a music perspective. It's an agenda that you have demonstrated time and time again. Moderators look for patterns of behaviour, and it is obvious with you. We have a topic for mentioning videos in General Music Discussions. Had you not made a topic there then I would not have interfered. I also have changed my mind on locked topics, or an avatar recently which i had removed, when people have PMed me explaining their intentions.
I did not censor the music, I even properly embedded it and said how to do it. What I did do was censor any future discussion on it in the thread by locking the thread. The topic is visible. We made decisions as collaborators. If you have access to the collab zone, other Prog Reviewers do, then I suggest you present your case for changes there. I'd sit out of it until it develops, but of course if called on that it got to heated, I would have to deal with it. This stuff is time-consuming and believe me, I don't enjoy it one bit.
I suggest that we avoid politically charged and controversial topics here.
Edited by Logan - October 30 2024 at 19:26
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 5358
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:12 |
And in fact I asked: What would happen if Yes wrote a political song or a political album about war in Ukraine or Middle East in this forum? |
The only way to find out is to commission the remaining members of Yes to write such song and link it here. :v I think your question was a bit manipulative. It's like you assumed the band Yes to be more of an authority to the prog rock forum crowd and those "dumb prog rockers" would be more likely to "buy" a moralizing message in a song from Yes rather than an underground hip hop band.
Edited by Hrychu - October 30 2024 at 19:20
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 5986
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Posted: October 30 2024 at 19:06 |
Logan, when you write:
By the, we have disallowed political discussions at PA due to the reactions it has brought about and, as I expected, this video has very political dimension. Of course politics/message is often an important part of a song and it would be problematic to not allow mentioning songs that have a political component, but since this topic is about the message on a topic that is politically charged, I will lock this. The title itself for the video, The Song Israel Doesn't Want You To Hear, makes its biases clear as do the lyrics
I totally disagree.
I posted a song, being careful not to connote it a in a political way. That you see a political intent in what I do is your own projection. The facts say that I merely posted a song, I would say of the protest song strand - a strand that I love.
In my opinion, in its genre, it is a very good song, done well.
The video found online had that title, but the song I believe is called One Year of Genocide.
Now, the point is: who's playing politics here, me or you editors of the forum?
I just post songs I like, of whatever kind, regardless of the message they have - but does a form of artistic expression have a clear message for everyone? Or can what it elicits in the user be very different?
The one who censors a song that deals with a political issue, in my opinion, is the only one who really does politics, because he claims to impose on everyone what the song said to him and, based on that, decide to accept or censor that song.
This is a political way of acting that I would call reactionary/authoritarian attitude that even goes so far as to violate the artistic merits of works of art and this attitude has historically prevented many valuable works of art from coming to public knowledge.
But it is a political attitude that you forum editors have adopted, if you have gone so far as to ban even songs with a political theme - or certain songs with a political theme.
This is no longer a music forum, but a politically oriented music forum in the sense of censoring songs with politically sensitive themes - if this had been done in the 1970s, Stormy Six and Area would have been banned in this forum.
And in fact I asked: What would happen if Yes wrote a political song or a political album about war in Ukraine or Middle East in this forum?
To be honest, I still dont know the answer.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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