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The Anders View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 21 2023 at 12:39
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I've made comments about bands/music that is not recorded "live" in studio and how some of that magic is simply missing......Those comments were dismissed by others. That is unfortunate that people cannot hear what is missing in music that is recorded separately and then emailed back and forth and pieced together....To me this is one of the downsides of the whole digital thing.


I'd say it depends on what type of music you are making. The "live magic" may be missing in studio recordings with overdubs, but then the "studio magic" may sometimes be missing in live performances as well. Trying to record, say, classical music by overdubbing will probably cause miserable results, and the same goes for a lot of jazz. But then there is music where studio experimentation and sound production is a big part of the overall expression.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2023 at 12:27
I would say that bad recording may not happen as much today as it did in the past. Think of King Crimson and In the Court and Aqualung, both I believe had issues with the tape machine alignment of tape heads. For KC, that cut off the highs pretty hard, this is where that muffly sound comes from.
Most of what we eventually hear is all due to bad production and mastering, and especially in mixing an album. Albums from the 60s that suffered from lack of bass, that could have been done on purpose, some bass was cut due to the consumer equipment in use at the time, cartridges and tonearms that could not track these frequencies without severe mistracking, skipping or arms jumping out of the groove. This was the case for original BlueNote jazz records that Rudy Van Gelder recorded, cartridges could not track his recording so he would cut the bass back when cutting records.
We don't have that issue with today's analog gear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2023 at 12:02
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I often have a big issue with records that sound too clean, and the beginning of digital recording is a good example of that. The sound becomes uninteresting, and there is often a lack of dynamics.

I think especially some of the "old boys" rock albums from the 1990's suffer from that. A good example would be Dire Straits: On Every Street - an album I otherwise like, but the sound is just too boring. Or Voodoo Lounge by the Rolling Stone. Some of the amazing "ugliness" of their classic era records disappears out of the window.
This "ugliness" (and I love that term) is the raw, stage sound that is missing on a lot of multi-track recordings as well. While it certainly has it's advantages (re-doing takes, layering etcetera), it misses that Live off the floor magic that can happen when musicians play together in one space at one time.
I've made comments about bands/music that is not recorded "live" in studio and how some of that magic is simply missing......Those comments were dismissed by others. That is unfortunate that people cannot hear what is missing in music that is recorded separately and then emailed back and forth and pieced together....To me this is one of the downsides of the whole digital thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 14:55
I'm a big fan of C.V. Jørgensen, but his first album from 1974 sounds really awful (despite some interesting musical and lyrical ideas). Bad sound mixing, muddy vocals (it is difficult to hear what he is singing) + too many instrumental errors.



For comparison, here's a song from his second album. Sounds much better:






Edited by The Anders - August 20 2023 at 15:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 10:57
^I agree that some magic can only happen when the band plays together. However, Steely Dan "Aja" was mulitracked out the wazoo and is a perfect record for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 10:14
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I often have a big issue with records that sound too clean, and the beginning of digital recording is a good example of that. The sound becomes uninteresting, and there is often a lack of dynamics.

I think especially some of the "old boys" rock albums from the 1990's suffer from that. A good example would be Dire Straits: On Every Street - an album I otherwise like, but the sound is just too boring. Or Voodoo Lounge by the Rolling Stone. Some of the amazing "ugliness" of their classic era records disappears out of the window.
This "ugliness" (and I love that term) is the raw, stage sound that is missing on a lot of multi-track recordings as well. While it certainly has it's advantages (re-doing takes, layering etcetera), it misses that Live off the floor magic that can happen when musicians play together in one space at one time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 10:08
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

I'm going to go with Rush Vapor Trails. One of the absolute worse. I can't, for the life of me, understand why RUSH would allow such a travesty with their name on it to be released. It was sooooo bad they ended up remixing the whole thing, not as a marketing gimmick, but because it was one huge steaming pile of turd.

The remix was a relief to hear.

It really was very bad indeed, wasn't it? But tbh, the remix didn't come as a great relief, it just re-affirmed in my mind that the album was in fact crap...
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I don't disagree with this at all. I was speaking strictly from a production perspective. The relief was to my ears, not my musical expectations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 09:32
I often have a big issue with records that sound too clean, and the beginning of digital recording is a good example of that. The sound becomes uninteresting, and there is often a lack of dynamics.

I think especially some of the "old boys" rock albums from the 1990's suffer from that. A good example would be Dire Straits: On Every Street - an album I otherwise like, but the sound is just too boring. Or Voodoo Lounge by the Rolling Stones. Some of the amazing "ugliness" of their classic era records disappears out of the window.


Edited by The Anders - August 20 2023 at 10:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 09:21
I also want to mention Illusions on a Double Dimple by Triumvirat. The one thing that keeps this from being a total masterpiece imo is the drum sound. It has a thud thud drum sound that I find rather annoying. The next one Spartacus might not be perfect in that area but it's still an improvement over Dimple. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 09:04
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I would check the English import ... since many of the American versions were copies, and the last album that this happened to, was DSOTM (that I have seen -- I still have the import of this album!!!), where the English version was much cleaner. I found this out by accident btw, when the first Sgt Pepper's album I got happened to be the import, and the American version was not very good, and the sound effects and many bits were downplayed a lot. So, we know that Capitol, in America did not get the masters to get the albums done or released in America, or possibly made the call that the sound effects were not what radio wanted! ... AFAIK.


The record I have IS the original UK release. I don't live in America, and I have never actually listened to the Capitol albums (I prefer not to). It is not that the sound isn't clean enough, but that the stereo pan is too primitive, and some of the songs almost hurt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 05:03
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

 But tbh, the remix didn't come as a great relief, it just re-affirmed in my mind that the album was in fact crap...

Crap?! That's harsh IMO, the remix improves on the original, makes the songs a bit more listenable. Smile

Well, there's the unexceptional 'One Little Victory', followed by 12 tracks which all sound the same to me.. seriously, I don't think I have another album where at any single point, I have absolutely no idea what I'm listening to, neither frankly do I care much... and this comes from a fan of 40 years...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 04:59
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

 But tbh, the remix didn't come as a great relief, it just re-affirmed in my mind that the album was in fact crap...

Crap?! That's harsh IMO, the remix improves on the original, makes the songs a bit more listenable. Smile


Edited by Cristi - August 20 2023 at 05:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 04:56
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

I'm going to go with Rush Vapor Trails. One of the absolute worse. I can't, for the life of me, understand why RUSH would allow such a travesty with their name on it to be released. It was sooooo bad they ended up remixing the whole thing, not as a marketing gimmick, but because it was one huge steaming pile of turd.

The remix was a relief to hear.

It really was very bad indeed, wasn't it? But tbh, the remix didn't come as a great relief, it just re-affirmed in my mind that the album was in fact crap...
Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meltdowner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 04:08
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

-Soft Machine's Third. I think we're all familiar with this album and its bad sound. It's a very murky album that sounds like it was recorded on cardboard equipment, which would explain the album cover. From what I know, no rerelease will be able to fix this because it was just recorded this sh*tty. Quite a shame, as it does hurt the music a lot, and it sounds especially bad on headphones (what I use for most of my listening).

-Genesis - Nursery Cryme. I don't think this sounds as bad as some people seem to think, but having recently listened to Trespass for the first time, that really sounded a lot better than I was expecting based on Nursery Cryme. Foxtrot is also a clear improvement over Cryme. It doesn't really hurt my enjoyment.
I heard Third on headphones recently, I don't dislike the murky sound and unbalanced stereo panning, it gives a surreal quality to the music.

I don't know which version you heard but Nick Davies' remix improved the sound quality a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2023 at 03:52
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I have to say, I don't find the sound of the Soft Machine that bad actually. The production is a bit amateurish (some equalizing to add more treble would be welcome, because there is a LOT of bass), but on the other hand I quite like that it isn't so streamlined. It gives it some charm and some edge. This is part of what I also like about Can's albums btw.
Agreed. I like quite the murky sound of Third and got no issues with the sound of Can's albums.
Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:


-I have to mention Metallica, who have 3 (!) infamously bad sounding albums.
1) PA's favorite, ...And Justice For All, which has no audible bass, tinny guitars, and a snaredrum that sounds like a mouse-click (which tbf is a problem for a lot of thrash metal from the era),
Sure in regards to ...Justice it's a bit of a shame, but the actual songs and compositions are strong enough, so I forget about such issues while listening. Genuinely audiable bass in classic thrash is almost a rarity, so I've gotten used to it anyway:). I suppose I would have forgiven such things in regards to St. Anger and Death Magnetic if I cared enough for the musical content. All that said, for famously treble heavy but thin/poor-sounding 1980's metal like Death - Leprosy, Morbid Saint - Spectrum of Death... (I could make an endless list really) I love them warts and all -but just about any remastering is an upgrade and welcomed by me. It's become sort of a cliché to state that remastering messes with the original art - as most obscure (or famous) bands would have loved a more professional sound. It's funny that the early True Norwegian Black Metallers tried to imitate the production from all these bands that would have preferred to sound totally different themselves.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I have bigger problems with clean, modern production in general than any Floyd 68/69... or even Nursery Cryme really.  For Floyd I've never even thought about any sound issues, but my remaster with the Genesis-album admittedly latter blows my original pressing out of the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2023 at 20:30
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I'll mention the original 1965 stereo mix of Rubber Soul where the left/right pan is often extreme. In loudspeakers it is probably OK, but with headphones it is not very pleasant to listen to. Normally I don't like it when old albums are remixed, but in this case I understand why it was done. The 1987 mix is much more pleasant. 
...

Hi,

I would check the English import ... since many of the American versions were copies, and the last album that this happened to, was DSOTM (that I have seen -- I still have the import of this album!!!), where the English version was much cleaner. I found this out by accident btw, when the first Sgt Pepper's album I got happened to be the import, and the American version was not very good, and the sound effects and many bits were downplayed a lot. So, we know that Capitol, in America did not get the masters to get the albums done or released in America, or possibly made the call that the sound effects were not what radio wanted! ... AFAIK.


Edited by moshkito - August 19 2023 at 20:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2023 at 19:42
The last few by Deluge Grander. The first two sounded good but the later ones not so much. It's like the band were kicked out of a studio and forced to record in a basement or something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2023 at 18:56
I'm going to go with Rush Vapor Trails. One of the absolute worse. I can't, for the life of me, understand why RUSH would allow such a travesty with their name on it to be released. It was sooooo bad they ended up remixing the whole thing, not as a marketing gimmick, but because it was one huge steaming pile of turd.

The remix was a relief to hear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2023 at 17:42
I'll mention the original 1965 stereo mix of Rubber Soul where the left/right pan is often extreme. In loudspeakers it is probably OK, but with headphones it is not very pleasant to listen to. Normally I don't like it when old albums are remixed, but in this case I understand why it was done. The 1987 mix is much more pleasant. Otherwise I prefer the mono version.

There is also David Bowie's 1969 album where the sound is very muddy, the balance between instruments is poor, and the production is messy. The exception is "Space Oddity" which is beautifully produced.

I have to say, I don't find the sound of the Soft Machine that bad actually. The production is a bit amateurish (some equalizing to add more treble would be welcome, because there is a LOT of bass), but on the other hand I quite like that it isn't so streamlined. It gives it some charm and some edge. This is part of what I also like about Can's albums btw.



Edited by The Anders - August 19 2023 at 17:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2023 at 10:35

Universal Totem Orchestra - Mathematical Mother 

I find not least the drums to be all too light, and yes, it definitely has diminished my enjoyment of this album so far, 
even I like much the music.
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