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The first suite

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mickcoxinha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickcoxinha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The first suite
    Posted: May 10 2023 at 13:15
For rock I'd suggest "The Progress Suite" from Chad and Jeremy "Of Cabbages and Kings" album, released in 1967.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2023 at 06:17
Hi,

My thoughts are that the discussion here is limited to too much Anglo-American music, and not enough to the other Europeans and others around the globe.

Both America and England, have committed to a commercial style for music that is less represented by ideas from classical music, than otherwise. We might consider that some jazz things do fit, but when you see jazz in 4 minute segments, as songs, then you wonder where "jazz" really went.

If we include, and look at, a lot of Europeans, it's hard to believe that ANGE, AD2, LE ORME, BANCO and others did not create true "suites" with their music, and them not being mentioned, is kinda sad ... many of these were far more into the ideas involved here than otherwise, but instead, we look at material that was "song" oriented, as so much of the pieces mentioned were.

Iron Butterfly's effort is nice, but I'm not sure that it was quite intended to be a "suite", and it really fit a lot more as a "trip" even though today we look at it as a blues/whatever thing, and not a "trip" ... hearing it today, I'm not sure that today's audience knows how to close their eyes and enjoy the music, instead of cheering out loud for the metal guitar and the gruff voice (or then hear a comment like too much meandering and wondering about nothing -- like metal doesn't!) ... and a "suite" is meant for people that can "fly" and "trip" ... not to suggest that many metalizers can't trip, but I don't find the long things by DT and others anywhere near the definition of a "suite", other than a pair or trio of songs put together as different parts of a thought or two.

I think we need to be more inclusive, if we're going to discuss this ... we're mentioning too many commercially designed and known material to the mix. I would venture to say that even Frank Zappa is one of the few that fits, and he would know what a "suite" is, and give you a lesson with his baton!


Edited by moshkito - May 10 2023 at 06:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2023 at 06:01
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Actually Zappa's Freak Out had the final Son of a Monster Magnet  suite which took up most of side three and all of side four on the debut. That could possibly count. Released 27 June 1966

Not prog but Love had a side long track titled Revelation on the album Da Capo released Nov 1966

Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant had a side long song Alice's Restaurant Massacree released 4 October 1967
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2023 at 12:26
O my God...


we should finish the discussion here.... with the definitive results.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2023 at 14:49
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Where are the last messages?
PA site has been down for a day.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2023 at 14:22
Where are the last messages?
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 17:18
Actually Zappa's Freak Out had the final Son of a Monster Magnet  suite which took up most of side three and all of side four on the debut. That could possibly count. Released 27 June 1966

Not prog but Love had a side long track titled Revelation on the album Da Capo released Nov 1966

Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant had a side long song Alice's Restaurant Massacree released 4 October 1967






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 17:00
^ folk rock

there are countless jazz, classical and ethnic albums that count as well as electronic music

i didn't make the thread. just telling ya what's been discussed :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 16:17
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i mentioned jazz and ragas way back and he said this is for rock and folk only
Well I don't really care - or can't relate and just responded to something that interests me: a jazz related comment. A raga is most certainly folk music to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 15:50
^ i mentioned jazz and ragas way back and he said this is for rock and folk only

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 15:40
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

John Coltrane had been jammin' in length for a couple years before A Love Supreme's January 1965 release. Besides the 17:40 minute Side Two song, the whole album is one suite! And it would certainly be difficult to argue that the album (A Love Supreme) wasn't influential throughout the music world.


I know A Love Supreme. Wonderful album. 

Many classic-rock fans love it.

But there isnt a long-side song, Drew. 
No, it's a double sided suite. Anyway, both:

Africa (16:28) from Africa/Brass, released May 1961 &
Olé (18:17) from Olé Coltrane, released November 1961
in particular, are sidelong masterpieces. The latter was a huge influence for The Doors.

of course Sonny Rollins' sidelong and aptly titled - The Freedom Suite (19:17) was released as early as 1958.

-and before that Ravi Shankar's 28 minute long a-side track Rāga Jog off Music of India: Three Classical Rāgas was released in 1956. It's amazing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 14:58
^ maybe not. The date could be wrong and it seems that album could be a live album

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 13:58
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

According to LAST FM, Hansson & Karlsson's REX was released January 1st, 1968

Otherwise there is no other info about it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 13:50
According to LAST FM, Hansson & Karlsson's REX was released January 1st, 1968

Otherwise there is no other info about it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 13:14
Podium:


1) Sandy Bull: Blend (taken from Fantasias for guitar and banjo, 1963)






2) Hapshash and The Coloured Coat - Featuring The Human Host and the Heavy Metal Kids (1967): Empires of the Sun 


Here the full album:





3) Frank Zappa: Lumpy Gravy, part 1, may 1968





Edited by jamesbaldwin - April 15 2023 at 13:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2023 at 13:07
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.

Maybe you should update your OP, Lorenzo. Smile


O my God....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2023 at 22:39
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

a collage of short pieces of music where the pauses of silence between tracks have been removed. Sometimes the transition from one track to another is also quite abrupt (as in the ending, when the string instruments come in).  I wouldn't consider it a side-long rock song.
Yes exactly a suite. And sometime transitions in suites are abrupt (but compository/thematically linked). Both the a side and the b-side are near perfect examples of a sidelong suite. Soft Machine Virtually I-IV with it's pauses is also much closer to a traditional (sidelong) suite than Moon in june is. But for some strange reason you've decided that it's the other way around - by default.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - April 12 2023 at 22:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2023 at 17:35

Something else is, if not keeping strictly to Rock, I think, it'll get impossible. 
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2023 at 17:21
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.

Maybe you should update your OP, Lorenzo. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2023 at 17:03
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

John Coltrane had been jammin' in length for a couple years before A Love Supreme's January 1965 release. Besides the 17:40 minute Side Two song, the whole album is one suite! And it would certainly be difficult to argue that the album (A Love Supreme) wasn't influential throughout the music world.


I know A Love Supreme. Wonderful album. 

Many classic-rock fans love it.

But there isnt a long-side song, Drew. 

I never knew till this week that the album had been divided into parts: my original vinyl just sounded like one continuous song, with no breaks, and several motifs. Even on the label of Side Two it's listed as "Part 3. Pursuance/Part 4. Psalm" which is different from Side One which lists "Part 1: Acknowledgment" and, as a second and clearly demarcated item, "Part 2: Resolution" -- all of which were recorded on the same day, December 9, 1964.

Plus, encyclopedias say this:
"A Love Supreme is a through-composed suite [sic] in four parts" --which, I thought, according to your OP, was exactly what you were looking for.?!?!?!


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