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Has Nationalism become a bad word?

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tszirmay View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 20 2021 at 12:51
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The more relevant battleground for nationalism is playing out in the Jerusalem thread though. See how well it works.

No kidding! Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 15:39
The more relevant battleground for nationalism is playing out in the Jerusalem thread though. See how well it works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 09:15
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

When it comes to nationalism, I'm English first, British second, and European a very distant third, although that was before Brexit. Smile


Pretty much the same here, though I'm Yorkshire first, English second, etc, and proud of my roots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 08:30
When it comes to nationalism, I'm English first, British second, and European a very distant third, although that was before Brexit. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 06:11
Yes, and it is unfortunate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2021 at 06:58
I'm sure that capitalism can be incorporated into nationalism somehow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2021 at 06:35
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:


Congratulations on making the adaptation to German life! I was only making a linguistic comment, nothing more, certainly not trying to paint you as a German nationalist or perhaps better, an anti-nationalist. Does not quite explain why Switzerland has been in relative peace since Napoleon , determined to stay neutral and being a beacon for proper social direct democracy while at the same time, arguably the MOST nationalistic/patriotic country in Europe, if not beyond. Other countries view their existence as some mythical legend (not unlike William Tell, mind you) such as Mother Russia, the Vaterland, the Voortrekkers, Eva Peron and countless other messianic or semi-messianic figures like Washington, Napoleon or even Moses for that matter. There are good nationalists and bad ones, there is positive nationalism and negative ones (note the plural). Lumping them all in one giant basket is just plain silly as well as historically false. But it is the current tendency by the "illuminated" activists we see today whose knowledge of history is YESTERDAY. Now Imperialism , that is another story altogether. 

It will be hard to measure in any objective sense what is meant by "the most nationalistic country", let alone the idea that Switzerland has been doing well has any causal connection with this (a different interpretation says that it has more to do with the Swiss banking system than with anything else).

Switzerland is not a bank , that really happened with the Romanov fortune and neutrality (that is the measure in an objective sense of its nationalism) but rather a collection of religious rejects (Huguenots, Catholic Germans and Protestant Italians) and has not invaded anyone since its inception. Yet, despite its strong cantonal system, the white cross on red background is everywhere to be seen. Its neutrality is the safeguard for it to remain stable which generally then led to a nice and safe place to stash your cash. 


Edited by tszirmay - April 19 2021 at 06:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2021 at 04:03
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:


Congratulations on making the adaptation to German life! I was only making a linguistic comment, nothing more, certainly not trying to paint you as a German nationalist or perhaps better, an anti-nationalist. Does not quite explain why Switzerland has been in relative peace since Napoleon , determined to stay neutral and being a beacon for proper social direct democracy while at the same time, arguably the MOST nationalistic/patriotic country in Europe, if not beyond. Other countries view their existence as some mythical legend (not unlike William Tell, mind you) such as Mother Russia, the Vaterland, the Voortrekkers, Eva Peron and countless other messianic or semi-messianic figures like Washington, Napoleon or even Moses for that matter. There are good nationalists and bad ones, there is positive nationalism and negative ones (note the plural). Lumping them all in one giant basket is just plain silly as well as historically false. But it is the current tendency by the "illuminated" activists we see today whose knowledge of history is YESTERDAY. Now Imperialism , that is another story altogether. 

It will be hard to measure in any objective sense what is meant by "the most nationalistic country", let alone the idea that Switzerland has been doing well has any causal connection with this (a different interpretation says that it has more to do with the Swiss banking system than with anything else).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2021 at 02:12
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Don't know who introduced this notion of "one world government" but if it was in opposition to nationalism it is a wonderful example of how ridiculous binary thought can be.

Well in a microlevel , that is what the EU commission is trying to to do with the European member states : eliminating national constitutions and superimposing the Brussels constitution . AKA Good luck , commissars! 


HG Wells wrote a huge essay about it in 1941 in his book The New World Order, which I guess is where the conspiracy theorists got that term from. He posited that the only way to avoid future wars was to do away with sovereign territories, introduce one global currency, and one global religion. In theory there would be no need for armies because the concept of 'sides' would be eliminated. The only thing required would be a global police force to crush pockets of dissent.

In any case, nations are unavoidably connected through technology, more so than ever before. There is already a framework for global governance in place through the UN, G20, WTO etc, and I think there is an inevitability about a push for One Word Order. I also don't think there is anything terribly nefarious about the plan. I just don't think it will work, and may end in a horrific war, because the most powerful nations on earth have a different vision of what that global community should look like, and will never agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 18:31
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

"nationalism" has always been a bad word in my book
Not surprising since in German , you pronounce it as Nazionalizmus., even though it is written Nationalismus Embarrassed

I live in Germany but am not German by birth. I was born in the USA. my mother is Irish, my father American, and on my father's side a Chinese must have been thrown into my ancestry a few generations ago; most probably a Chinese railroad worker or laundryman. I came to Germany in 1993 at age 24

Congratulations on making the adaptation to German life! I was only making a linguistic comment, nothing more, certainly not trying to paint you as a German nationalist or perhaps better, an anti-nationalist. Does not quite explain why Switzerland has been in relative peace since Napoleon , determined to stay neutral and being a beacon for proper social direct democracy while at the same time, arguably the MOST nationalistic/patriotic country in Europe, if not beyond. Other countries view their existence as some mythical legend (not unlike William Tell, mind you) such as Mother Russia, the Vaterland, the Voortrekkers, Eva Peron and countless other messianic or semi-messianic figures like Washington, Napoleon or even Moses for that matter. There are good nationalists and bad ones, there is positive nationalism and negative ones (note the plural). Lumping them all in one giant basket is just plain silly as well as historically false. But it is the current tendency by the "illuminated" activists we see today whose knowledge of history is YESTERDAY. Now Imperialism , that is another story altogether. 


Edited by tszirmay - April 18 2021 at 18:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 15:57
It always struck me as ironic that Amaricans view the American Revolution as synonymous with all the past patriotic symbols such as the flag and Abe Lincoln's stovepipe hat, never guessing that thier country was founded by traitorous anti British revolutionaries while the British, trying to hold on to this colony in the New World, were the acctual nationalists.

I'm sure that some of the British had the same feelings when they let India go. Not that they acted upon them. At least blatantly.

Edited by SteveG - April 18 2021 at 17:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 14:02
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



So what you're doing is in the beginning you acknowledge the point I and others have made and in the end, you add yet another redefinition of nationalism so that you don't really have to. This is confusing.  If historically nationalism was used to organise democratic nation states and if there were instances when the nations were founded on sound human values, then that means at least historically nationalism was not an uniformly and universally bad thing.  This is all the point I have tried to make. It is not a particularly difficult one, so I don't quite understand the resistance against it.  It's not as if by acknowledging this you are somehow also conceding that Trumpian nationalism can be good.  No, I don't think it is good; I don't think any nationalism based on excluding people who already are legitimate citizens of a country can ever be good.

Fair enough... my point is not that it was uniformly and universally a bad thing (the concept of universalism is about as alien to me as national pride), but that would be a rather uninteresting statement anyway, by lack of any differentiation and historical context.

But surely we have to acknowledge that a term like this doesn't have one fixed meaning that is set in the beginning and then will hold forever. The very interesting Wikipedia page on nationalism starts with
Quote
Nationalism is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people), especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland.
That on its own would be fine and in line with an originally positive interpretation of the "nation" concept that I have distanced the term "nationalism" from. Historically this was probably understood as the core content of nationalism at various times and places including Gandhi's independence movement (by the way, my earlier question whether Gandhi ever referred to himself as nationalist is yet unanswered).
Google's default dictionary says
Quote
identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

I don't think Gandhi would have identified with any of the latter bit. But then I'm not the best Gandhi expert around. The English Wikipedia page adds such stuff later and isn't quite clear about to what extent this is essential for nationalism.
It also states
Quote
The term increasingly became negative in its connotations after 1914.
Quite old news in the opening posting then... Anyway, obviously this happened because the term had been used by different people and changed its meaning (or was in use with various and partly contradictory meanings by different people). Gandhi is associated with "anti-colonial nationalism", which we should acknowledged is a rather different beast from the European nationalism in the 19th century, or how it degenerated in the build-up to the two world wars. It is also quite different from the nationalism America according to the words of the thread-opener doesn't have enough of these days.

I'm German and my understanding of the term "nationalism" is coined by its use in German language. The German Wikipedia page cites (interestingly differently from the English one) the British sociologist Anthony D. Smith, listing four basic convictions characteristing nationalism, namely (1) the idea that there are naturally different peoples with naturally different national characters, (2) in order to reach national sovereignty, members of a nation need to identify themselves with the nation and need to be loyal to it, even place the loyalty to the nation over all other loyalties, (3) nations have the right of self-determination, (4) the nation is the only legitimate source of political power. This is much more far-reaching than the definition on the English page, and my stance may have to do with a certain difference between the English and German connotation of the term. Anti-colonial nationalism is based on (3), and I have no problems with that. I wouldn't sign any of the other three though. Nations have developed into being the major units of political organisation as I said before. I don't think that this in itself is bad. However I take as part of nationalism the claim that there is some natural necessity in this, that alternatives are illegitimate, and that members of a nation should be loyal to it, its symbols and its "identity" whatever that is, and dominating other loyalties (all this is also mentioned further down on the English Wikipedia page, if somewhat less straight regarding to what extent these beliefs are essential for nationalism).

The English page also states that  
Quote
Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements. It also encourages pride in national achievements (...)
If the national identity were something "natural" indeed, why should such artificial promotion be necessary? Left alone, it should develop naturally on its own, shouldn't it? An observation I have about nationalists is that they ultimately don't trust such natural development and think that steps need to be done in order to enforce it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 09:24
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I think it has to be acknowledged that historically there is a certain connection between the concept of "nation" and democracy, in the sense that democracy is about people ruling themselves in an organised manner. This needs a certain unit of organisation, which in the phase in history in which democracies became big and powerful has been the nation. Building and freeing of nations has often meant taking fate in the own hands of the people and building a democracy. Some people involved in these fights may have been motivated more by nationalism than by the concepts of democracy, freedom, or human rights, let alone equality, often ignoring though that what kept them away from power in many instances had been the nationalism of others. I would talk of "nationalism" if the idea of "nation" dominates the ideas of democracy, freedom, human rights, equality. Otherwise loyalty to the nation can help but is just a tool, maybe a pretty good one at that but also a dangerous one (we all know why).

A nationalist for me isn't anybody who would defend or fight for their nation to rule itself in a democratic manner; a nationalist is somebody who thinks the problem isn't so much dictatorship and suppression, the problem is if it's foreigners who do that.

So what you're doing is in the beginning you acknowledge the point I and others have made and in the end, you add yet another redefinition of nationalism so that you don't really have to. This is confusing.  If historically nationalism was used to organise democratic nation states and if there were instances when the nations were founded on sound human values, then that means at least historically nationalism was not an uniformly and universally bad thing.  This is all the point I have tried to make. It is not a particularly difficult one, so I don't quite understand the resistance against it.  It's not as if by acknowledging this you are somehow also conceding that Trumpian nationalism can be good.  No, I don't think it is good; I don't think any nationalism based on excluding people who already are legitimate citizens of a country can ever be good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 09:21
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:


Apologies for the mistype.  I was stating that regardless of passive or aggressive nationalism the end result = death.  Is that not a fact?  You keep thinking I am talking about Gandhi, which I am not.  I am stating this as cause (good intended or bad nationalism) = effect (death).  All I asked you was that in India did the good intentioned nationalism not cause death?


Unfortunately nationalism caters for the supreme race of a country regardless of which country and that's your problem, everyone else has to fight to exist.  Why do Mexicans have to mow all the lawns and do yardwork in the US.  Why do Indians have to do all the menial work in Abu Dhabi.  Poles or whatever in UK,  Used to be Turks in Germany now probably eastern Europeans.  Is that not all nationalism?  Send them all back?

In the US you have about (guessing) 50 Mio Blacks and @ 40+ Million Hispanic plus Asian.  Do you think they would fit into the same nationalism umbrella that is quoted by a political party or government?


No, this is a specious argument.  The good intentioned nationalism of Gandhi didn't cause the deaths; it was the bad intentions of the others - to repeat, the BE, Jinnah and the Hindu right.  Even the other eminent Congress leaders like Nehru or Patel didn't want partition. They all warned the British against it.  And once Jinnah realized Mountbatten was going to cut Punjab into two, even he didn't want it.  I shall most heartily blame the BE for the partition mess.  Even in their moment of departing, they screwed over the subcontinent with one last, decisive 'blunder'.  I mean that I don't even believe it was a pure blunder but a cynical move to ensure India and Pak would get locked in an arms race as they indeed have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 09:04
It was up to the posters to supply a definition. That is the purpose of the thread.

Edited by SteveG - April 18 2021 at 09:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 08:43
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Well, at this point, I'm waiting for the decenting crowd to the introduce psuedo terms and definitions like Anti-patriotism and neo-expansionalism, as well as other semantic arguments in order to bolster thier viewpoints. Time to fire up the popcorn maker.

Thanks for the constructive reply. If I remember correctly it was you who started a discussion about a word without giving a definition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 08:00
Well, at this point, I'm waiting for the decenting crowd to the introduce psuedo terms and definitions like Anti-patriotism and neo-expansionalism, as well as other semantic arguments in order to bolster thier viewpoints. Time to fire up the popcorn maker.

Edited by SteveG - April 18 2021 at 08:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 06:06
I think it has to be acknowledged that historically there is a certain connection between the concept of "nation" and democracy, in the sense that democracy is about people ruling themselves in an organised manner. This needs a certain unit of organisation, which in the phase in history in which democracies became big and powerful has been the nation. Building and freeing of nations has often meant taking fate in the own hands of the people and building a democracy. Some people involved in these fights may have been motivated more by nationalism than by the concepts of democracy, freedom, or human rights, let alone equality, often ignoring though that what kept them away from power in many instances had been the nationalism of others. I would talk of "nationalism" if the idea of "nation" dominates the ideas of democracy, freedom, human rights, equality. Otherwise loyalty to the nation can help but is just a tool, maybe a pretty good one at that but also a dangerous one (we all know why).

A nationalist for me isn't anybody who would defend or fight for their nation to rule itself in a democratic manner; a nationalist is somebody who thinks the problem isn't so much dictatorship and suppression, the problem is if it's foreigners who do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 05:22
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

  I appreciate your detailed multi part answer as a lot of thought and effort went into it. I'm only interested in answering your first point about just employing humanism to right a social wrong in a foreign country. That would be an ideal situation if it was workable. With China now the world's factory, diplomatic efforts such as economic sanctions are not a viable tool to fight thier human rights violations. Neither are they a deterrent against China's own nationalistic endevers, such as thier claims to international waters in the Indo Pacific areas. These can only be kept in check by another countrie's show of military force. which for good or bad, will always be driven by the opposing countrie's nationalism, not it's humanitarian inclination.

It doesn't have to be an "opposing country", it could be an alliance.
But even if it were a country, I distinguish "nationalism" from "standing in for national interest". "Nationalism" is an ideology (the "-ism" gives it away), whereas acknowledging national interests in my view is just pragmatic. It's an implication of the organisation of interests by nation; you don't need to attach more meaning to the concept of "nation" than just that to defend its interests. That's not "nationalism" for me. The people who do this don't need "national pride", they don't need "national culture" or "identity", they don't need to think their compatriots better or even more important than any other human beings, they just need to care for the people they are meant to care for by how things are organised (in this and many other cases meaning "the people who elected them").
Seperating nationalism from national culture and identity is a good trick if one can pull it off, but I don't believe that's possible as they are all strongly interrelated and are intransic to most people residing in a common culture. And for the present time they are much more intrinsic than humanism or altruism.

Edit: Totally misunderstood your post on first reading it.

Not sure whether I'm referring to your earlier misunderstanding, but what I did was separating "nationalism" from pursuing a national interest not on the basis that the own nation is in any way superior to or more important than others as a nation (ideology), but because interests are as a matter of fact in present organised by nation and it make sense to stand in for the own interest (pragmatism).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2021 at 05:21
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Did Gandhi and Mandela actually call themselves nationalists, or are they just called this here in order to make a point?

This was 70 years ago with hindsight they would have called themselves something else.  They are both great people.
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