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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Barbara Dennerlein for jazz-rock/fusion
    Posted: February 14 2020 at 09:53
I'm sorry if you thought that the suggestion is still up for discussion till the end of time but it is not, we have heard enough of her work and didn't find something that would make us formally evaluate her. Feel free to appreciate her in her own separate thread or something but I'm closing this one for good.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2020 at 08:35
Barbara Dennerlein can even sound like hard rock:




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2020 at 21:50
here is Barbara Dennerlein being extremely experimental on the pipe organ:




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2020 at 20:30
another quote from an an article in which Barbara Dennerlein is mentioned (Belles of the B3: Scott, Tsuruga and Dennerlein). highlights by me again.

German organist Barbara Dennerlein has had a distinguished career successfully taking her B3 to places where it was previously unwelcome. Her compositions and style have braved a path for her instrument that doesn't follow the norm. As such, Change of Pace is much more than its title implies and is as much kin to Gershwin as it is to organist Keith Emerson's more adventurous works with The Nice and Emerson, Lake & Palmer. That said, Dennerlein's awesome technique and compositional skills do break new musical ground as she exquisitely blends her B3 trio, which includes saxophonist Peter Lehel and drummer/percussionist Daniel Messina, into the State Philharmonic Orchestra of Rhineland-Palatinate conducted by Bernd Ruf. The resultant sound, due in some part to her expert use of synthesizers, thrills as only a musical aggregation of this magnitude could. The strings are glorious, the brass voicings superb and the winds are joyous as Dennerlein's organ meets the philharmonic as equal partner. Recorded live, five extended compositions artfully combine classical, jazz and rock using intricate tempos, quick changes, mood shifts and more than a hint of exoticism to present rhapsodic stylistic wholes. This is a major release by one of the B3's foremost proponents.

and here a link to the album in question:


this album is definitely innovative


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2020 at 08:27
I wouldn't be wasting your inestimable energy on persuading me, it's the genre team(s) you have to convince
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2020 at 08:18
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I must have missed the memo advising that most interesting has been rebranded highly innovative. Which begs the question: would an artist considered by certain published 3rd parties as either innovative or interesting 40 years ago, still fulfill those descriptions now?

All the highlighted passages in the reviews Jean cited in her original post are about her being innovative, like "rewriting the rulebook" or "breaking the mold". If you actually do a Google search for Barbara Dennerlein in combination with the word "innovative" you will find countless websites.

This passage is taken from a review of her album "My Moments":

Perhaps only once in a generation or two, a musician emerges whose talent, skill and innovation takes virtuosity on their chosen instrument to a level never seen or heard before. Barbara Dennerlein is such a musician, and the organ, both the Hammond B3 and the Pipe Organ, are her instruments.

The full review can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/u73vma7

As to your question: Maybe not, but the question is missing the point. The important thing is that at some time the artist in question definitely was innovative. Also Barbara continued to stay innovative over the years. You just have to read an online biography of her to become aware of that. Or listen to her albums without a prejudiced ear.


Edited by BaldFriede - February 03 2020 at 08:29


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2020 at 07:53
Maybe I missed the memo advising that most interesting has been rebranded highly innovative. Which begs the question: would an artist considered  as either innovative or interesting 40 years ago, still fulfill those descriptions now? I can quote you loads of people who disagree with my opinions on all manner of topics but it wouldn't change those opinions in the slightest. Hell, there are sufficient dissenters to have created  entire websites dedicated to a flat earth, white supremacy, homophobia, christian fundamentalism and even Manchester United ffs. (does published opinion equate to credible opinion from your perspective?) If so, that simply reinforces my suspicion that you clearly don't trust your own judgement and by extrapolation, need the reinforcement of others to validate your opinions)

Edited by ExittheLemming - February 03 2020 at 08:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 11:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

If the pair of you were lobbying the EU to outlaw gravity, I suspect you have the capacity to wear down even the most obdurate commissioners into an exhausted and exasperated acquiescence. I own and enjoy 4 Dennerlein CD's, including Hot Stuff which is funky blues/hard bop and Junkanoo where yes, the Bahamian inspired percussion certainly lends the music an exotic texture but neither are jazz rock/fusion albums to my ears. (Keith Emerson's Honky solo album from 16 years previously, also exploits this ethnic rhythmic element so it's hardly unprecedented in either Jazz or Rock) That said, there may be other BD albums I haven't heard which do qualify. I'm not sure why use of a MIDI modded Hammond or virtuosity on bass foot-pedals has anything to do with inclusion criteria? For me she's a plain vanilla post bop jazz musician who occasionally reciprocates her fusion and classical influences. The Jazz Rock/Fusion genre is by definition, a very broad church but that's principally because Jazz has been fused with practically every other genre since the dawn of time and it should be self evident that not all the results are eligible for inclusion on PA. The PA definition also states that if an artist doesn't have elements of Progressive Rock in their music they would have to represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre. I'm not remotely convinced Dennerlein would tick either box.

Funny how someone who is not highly innovative can be called "the most interesting organist to emerge during the 80s", isn't it? Jean highlighted lots of quotes from reviews of her where is called exactly that which you doubt.


Edited by BaldFriede - February 02 2020 at 11:20


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 07:27
^ i admire your command of language and tenacity. A rabid Dennerlein fan you are! You are correct in your assessment of the definitions of jazz-rock / fusion etc. The thing is we only add THE MOST PROGRESSIVE of fusion artists NOT EVERY FUSION ARTIST. While her fusion is clearly laced with rock, it's not progressive rock. I did check out a couple albums so far and i have not heard anything to shoot it into the prog-o-sphere. We have rejected artists with much more fusion qualities than Barbara. I personally have suggested many artists that i felt should have been here but were rejected by the rest of the team based on the not proggy enough. It is a good policy otherwise we'd have to add hundreds of artists who may have technically had a few fusion albums but weren't primarily focused upon it. I agree that some artists that were included in the early days of the site probably shouldn't have been and hopefully a great culling will occur but most likely not. So on behalf of the team, i'm sorry but i don't think she is progressive rock oriented enough. A talented and admirable artist for sure and i thank your for making me aware of her :)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 03:19
I think the differing opinions here are based on a misunderstanding. Jean certainly would not want to have Barbara Dennerlein included into jazz-rock; that she clearly isn't. However, the category in question is NOT called "Jazz-Rock" but "Jazz-Rock/Fusion". This seems to suggest that there is a difference between the two, though they are often used synonymously.

To add to the confusion Wikipedia offers neither term but instead "Jazz Fusion" and defines it like this:

"Jazz fusion (also known as fusion)[1] is a music genre that developed in the late 1960s when musicians combined jazz harmony and improvisation with rock music, funk, and rhythm and blues. Electric guitars, amplifiers, and keyboards that were popular in rock and roll started to be used by jazz musicians, particularly those who had grown up listening to rock and roll.

Jazz fusion arrangements vary in complexity. Some employ groove-based vamps fixed to a single key or a single chord with a simple, repeated melody. Others use elaborate chord progressions, unconventional time signatures, or melodies with counter-melodies. These arrangements, whether simple or complex, typically include improvised sections that can vary in length, much like in other forms of jazz.

As with jazz, jazz fusion employs brass and woodwind instruments such as trumpet and saxophone, but other instruments often substitute for these. A jazz fusion band is less likely to use piano and double bass, and more likely to use electric guitar, synthesizers and bass guitar.

The term "jazz rock" is sometimes used as a synonym for "jazz fusion" and for music performed by late 1960s and 1970s-era rock bands that added jazz elements to their music. After a decade of popularity during the 1970s, fusion expanded its improvisatory and experimental approaches through the 1980s in parallel with the development of a radio-friendly style called smooth jazz. Experimentation continued in the 1990s and 2000s. Fusion albums, even those that are made by the same group or artist, may include a variety of musical styles. Rather than being a codified musical style, fusion can be viewed as a musical tradition or approach."

Taking that definition as reference Barbara Dennerlein does in my opinion certainly qualify because both Funk and Rhythm and Blues are very prominent in her music (as well as for example Latin, Carribean or even Salsa). And these passages "Others use elaborate chord progressions, unconventional time signatures, or melodies with counter-melodies. These arrangements, whether simple or complex, typically include improvised sections that can vary in length, much like in other forms of jazz" and "Rather than being a codified musical style, fusion can be viewed as a musical tradition or approach" most definitely fit her music. Rock is not so much a characteristic of her music, though there are exceptions like "Wow!" from "Hot Stuff" (she once explained in an interview that it was specifically written for her appearance on a German TV-program called "Ohne Filter" meaning "Without Filter"; she thought she needed at least one rock number for that) or the Rolling Stones cover "Satisfaction" from "Outhipped".



Edited by BaldFriede - February 02 2020 at 03:49


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 01:24
If the pair of you were lobbying the EU to outlaw gravity, I suspect you have the capacity to wear down even the most obdurate commissioners into an exhausted and exasperated acquiescence. I own and enjoy 4 Dennerlein CD's, including Hot Stuff which is funky blues/hard bop and Junkanoo where yes, the Bahamian inspired percussion certainly lends the music an exotic texture but neither are jazz rock/fusion albums to my ears. (Keith Emerson's Honky solo album from 16 years previously, also exploits this ethnic rhythmic element so it's hardly unprecedented in either Jazz or Rock) That said, there may be other BD albums I haven't heard which do qualify. I'm not sure why use of a MIDI modded Hammond or virtuosity on bass foot-pedals has anything to do with inclusion criteria? For me she's a plain vanilla post bop jazz musician who occasionally reciprocates her fusion and classical influences. The Jazz Rock/Fusion genre is by definition, a very broad church but that's principally because Jazz has been fused with practically every other genre since the dawn of time and it should be self evident that not all the results are eligible for inclusion on PA. The PA definition also states that if an artist doesn't have elements of Progressive Rock in their music they would have to represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre. I'm not remotely convinced Dennerlein would tick either box.


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 02 2020 at 05:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2020 at 00:59
Just wanted to second George’s opinion here. I hear a jazz musician making jazz music that occasionally veers into other styles...but never enough to call it anything other than jazz. At least to my ears. Said another way: before we think about artists like Dennerlein we already have jazz artists who are far closer to fusion than she ever was. Pharoah Sanders, Herbie Mann, Sun Ra, John Coltrane and so forth. It quickly gets to be a neverending list of jazz artists who all are widely known and respected as jazz artists..shoehorned into an odd prog rock connotation... and we effectively end up with a jazz category that starts looking like JMA.

Then again jazz is brilliant and doesn’t exactly need to be anything other in order to woo the pants off of me
Based on what I’ve checked out so far I am pretty sure I will be ordering Orgelspiele.

Oh and before I end: Never ever conflate evaluations over PA with quality control! Those are two very different things.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 15:47
this is a link to Barbara Dennerlein's entry in the Jazz Archives:


please note that the musical styles she is listed for are "Soul Jazz / Hard Bop / Fusion / Third Stream / Post-Fusion Contemporary / Post Bop / Big Band" and 4 of her albums ("Orgelspiele", "Hot Stuff", "That's Me" and "Take Off") are listed as "fusion" there


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 14:32
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

Feel free to disagree, but I'm not about to waste my time or other volunteers time on this suggestion (unless they explicitly want to grab it, though I can tell odds are not good from the start). Also it frankly says later in the definition:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person.


Deciding which fusion is not progressive and which is, is a decision on our part, and I can't help it if I hear different things in Soft Heap and something like 'Outhipped', both are called as fusion albums but I see them as miles apart.

I totally agree! the Soft Heap album has almost no rock components, but there are plenty in "Outhipped"


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 14:16
Feel free to disagree, but I'm not about to waste my time or other volunteers time on this suggestion (unless they explicitly want to grab it, though I can tell odds are not good from the start). Also it frankly says later in the definition:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person.


Deciding which fusion is not progressive and which is, is a decision on our part, and I can't help it if I hear different things in Soft Heap and something like 'Outhipped', both are called as fusion albums but I see them as miles apart.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 13:13
I still disagree. while she made a lot of albums that are not jazz-rock/ fusion at all (like many artists that are in that genre on this site) her string of albums with guitarist Mitch Watkins (there are 6 of them) do in my opinion all at least fall partially into that genre. Watkins brought a lot of rock into her music.

allow me to cite the definition for the genre on this site, highlighting why I am for the inclusion of Barbara Dennerlein:

Jazz Rock/Fusion definition


  1. Jazz Fusion is jazz that is strongly influenced by other styles of music. Jazz fusion is an ambiguous term that provides the first level sub-set down from Jazz. Jazz rock is a sub-sub set from jazz via jazz fusion. The ambiguity comes from an American tendency through the 90's and until now, to freely interchange jazz rock and jazz fusion, when in fact the latter term covers most hybrids of jazz fused with other forms of music. The roots of jazz rock can be traced back to RnB influenced soul-jazz artists such as Les McCann, Grant Green and Jimmy Smith, and young British jazzers such as Graham Bond, Ginger Baker, John McLaughlin, Jack Bruce, Georgie Fame, who were forced to use electronic instruments because the local club's acoustic instruments were reserved for the older established jazz musicians. Probably the first jazz artists that released recordings that mixed modern rock (circa 60s) with jazz were Larry Coryell, Jeremy Steig, Charles Lloyd, The Soft Machine, and The (Jazz) Crusaders. Meanwhile rock artists such as Cream, Grateful Dead and The Jimi Hendrix Experience were getting a lot of publicity and fame with their lengthy improvisations based on blues, rock, psychedelia and some jazz. These rock artists had an impact on Miles Davis who generated a lot of media attention to this new jazz-rock genre with his Bitches Brew album. From there the genre grew and exploded into numerous different directions. One of these directions was brass rock as exemplified by bands like Dreams, Chicago, BS&T and If. These bands combined elements of jazz, rock and classical music with arrangements for brass and woodwinds.

  2. Many other styles of music have been combined with jazz to create fusion including traditional music from around the world, R'n'B, rock, electronic music and pop music and jazz from Africa, Latin America, India and other places. One of the earliest examples of the use of the term fusion comes from the Indo-jazz fusion of Joe Harriott and John Mayer. Some of the more popular early practitioners of fusion included Weather Report and Herbie Hancock's Sextant. A few years later Shakti appears on the scene and expands the boundaries of fusion further, foreshadowing the World Fusion movement of the 90's.

  3. In part Nu.jazz grew out of the British acid jazz scene of the late 80s and early 90s, whilst modern leaders of nu.fusion cite Miles Davis and Jon Hassell as the godfathers of the genre. As the genre began to develop it took on other influences such as world beat/jazz fusion, psychedelic trip-hop, post-rock and mixtures of ambience with modern jazz. The jazz with electronia experiments that Jon Hassell was conducting in the late 80's, with the likes of Eno, were to be a major influence especially on the dance side of nu.jazz, sometimes known as nu.fusion. Three main elements make nu.jazz different from the more traditional jazz (rock) fusion. First of all there is less of an emphasis on instrumental virtuosity in nu.jazz (especially nu.fusion). Second, more use of electronics (especially skilled turntablism) and studio trickery that emphasizes sound textures. Third, nu.jazz tends to use more modern rhythms such as drum'n'bass, hip-hop, post-rock, and various mixtures of world beat rhythms. Progressive nu.jazz artists such as Bugge Wesseltoft, Nils Petter Molvaer and the Esbjörn Svensson Trio (E.S.T.), combine complicated compositions with modern rhythms to create new unheard of soundscapes - while the former two are leaders of nu.fusion, and with more emphasis on jazz playing, EST have been the leaders in straighter nu.jazz. Nu.jazz is loosely connected to other newer jazz fusion genres, particularly the more progressive live, jazz jam bands such as Medeski Martin & Wood or Garaj Mahal. It may seem that the only difference between the two genres is the country the artist is from or what scene they came up through.li>

Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person. All artists have elements of progressive rock in their music (e.g. Jean Luc Ponty, Bill Bruford or David Sancious) or they represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre (e.g. Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock or Weather Report). It should be noted that those many Canterbury jazz rock fusion bands, e.g. Soft Machine, Soft Works, Soft Heap, Soft Machine Legacy, Gilgamesh etc. are to be found under the CANTERBURY heading in Prog Archives.

I think all this definitely merits the inclusion of Barbara Dennerlein. especially in view of this band, who is much less on the rock side of things than Barbara Dennerlein, and yet they are in the archives:


compared to Soft Heap Barbara Dennerlein is rock pure. mark that I am not questioning the inclusion of Soft Heap; I am all for their inclusion. but you won't find any trace of rock in their albums


Edited by BaldJean - February 01 2020 at 13:35


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 13:03
She doesn't have to be in one genre, but it is closer to jazz and hard bop than progressive rock, which is the one thing this site is archiving. And that is the only thing that matters, an artist doesn't have to be innovative or even good at all to get accepted on the site.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 12:54
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

Around 27 albums, out of which I'm hearing mostly 2 or 3 records that could be categorized as fusion, and out of those I'm not hearing much of fusion that we use as a basis for inclusion into our progressive rock related fusion genre. So it's not gonna fly, sorry.

ahem. an artist does not have to be all in one genre to be included. on the contrary, the more an artist gets out of the pigeonhole of "genre" the more progressive he/she is. Barbara Dennerlein is in a genre of her own and most definitely an innovator


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 12:47
Around 27 albums, out of which I'm hearing mostly 2 or 3 records that could be categorized as fusion, and out of those I'm not hearing much of fusion that we use as a basis for inclusion into our progressive rock related fusion genre. So it's not gonna fly, sorry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2020 at 12:17
 the way: now I know why Barbara Dennerlein is such an awesome player: she is not human, she is a Vulcan. just look at her ears! LOL






caught you, Dennerlein. confess! LOL



Edited by BaldJean - February 01 2020 at 12:35


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