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The best albums ELP never made

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Poll Question: ..but wish they had?!
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
9 [21.43%]
5 [11.90%]
10 [23.81%]
4 [9.52%]
1 [2.38%]
0 [0.00%]
6 [14.29%]
3 [7.14%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [7.14%]
1 [2.38%]
0 [0.00%]
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HarryAngel746 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarryAngel746 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The best albums ELP never made
    Posted: October 20 2019 at 08:35
Cannabis India around 1973 also liked ELP very much.
Archival recordins from this album prove that:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2019 at 00:55
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Or you say BEST ever made. I'll take Ys or Darwin over any ELP album any day. I voted for Ys which is what true prog dreams are made of and not sure why it's here because it's not an ELP clone in the least
 

None of the albums are really. I probably should have done a narrower poll with just with Trace , Triumvirat and the UK album. They are the closest to the ELP template. If I could pick any track from any of those albums it would be Carrying No Cross . Jobson was probably the real 'heir apparent' to Keith Emerson but perhaps UK mirrored ELP a bit with John Wetton not being keen on overdoing the symphonic thing ( as Greg Lake was in ELP).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2019 at 00:50
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
I really wish Emerson had done more with the classical thing. His Piano Concerto is inspired and personally I love Pirates which was apparently taken from an unused film soundtrack score. I think he was a very insecure person and probably the massive punk backlash of the seventies took it's toll on him. I do like his solo albums and its sad that they tend to be ignored . The soundtrack Inferno has some brilliant stuff imo.

BTW Have you read Kevin Gilbert's thoughts on Emerson? He was another incredibly talented guy who appreciated genius when he heard it. Both of course now very sadly missed.

Haven't checked into Kevin Gilbert yet, but will.

My biggest sadness within the scope of "popular music" and it's sick obsession with some kind of "top ten" so people know what to listen to and like, is that in the middle of all this, almost everyone, from fans to musicologists, fail to find any musicality worth discussing and appreciating ... thus, a lot of contemporary musicians will never, if EVER, be appreciated in their lifetime, or after.

I guess you could say, that my part in all this is to make sure that some of this does not get ignored, like it does so much ... and a lot of "admins" not having the ability to create such thought provoking threads ... that challenge your mind into expanding, the appreciation of the music ... but I have only one reservation, and it is a bit of a sick one ... I sincerely doubt that half the posters here have heard, listening style - not sampled ... that most of these folks have not heard half of these things in their entirety in order to make a "subjective" comment and choice.

I, personally, have not heard 2 things in that list ... and it is one of the reasons why I am afraid to comment on them, but I have no problem discussing Keith and his abilities, and how it was the ELP fans that killed him, for not appreciating his classical material more, which probably helped record companies tell him that he was just a rock'n'roll'er ... and that was not the case. Embarrassed
 

Works Volume One was a very tricky album and yes the record company were dictating the terms very obviously. Money Talks! The fans certainly wanted Brain Salad Surgery Part Two not Works. I was one of those but all three of them were on a different page and that was in the past. I remember Greg Lake saying that he point blank refused to do another 'electronic album' as he called it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2019 at 07:57
Or you say BEST ever made. I'll take Ys or Darwin over any ELP album any day. I voted for Ys which is what true prog dreams are made of and not sure why it's here because it's not an ELP clone in the least

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2019 at 07:52
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
I really wish Emerson had done more with the classical thing. His Piano Concerto is inspired and personally I love Pirates which was apparently taken from an unused film soundtrack score. I think he was a very insecure person and probably the massive punk backlash of the seventies took it's toll on him. I do like his solo albums and its sad that they tend to be ignored . The soundtrack Inferno has some brilliant stuff imo.

BTW Have you read Kevin Gilbert's thoughts on Emerson? He was another incredibly talented guy who appreciated genius when he heard it. Both of course now very sadly missed.

Haven't checked into Kevin Gilbert yet, but will.

My biggest sadness within the scope of "popular music" and it's sick obsession with some kind of "top ten" so people know what to listen to and like, is that in the middle of all this, almost everyone, from fans to musicologists, fail to find any musicality worth discussing and appreciating ... thus, a lot of contemporary musicians will never, if EVER, be appreciated in their lifetime, or after.

I guess you could say, that my part in all this is to make sure that some of this does not get ignored, like it does so much ... and a lot of "admins" not having the ability to create such thought provoking threads ... that challenge your mind into expanding, the appreciation of the music ... but I have only one reservation, and it is a bit of a sick one ... I sincerely doubt that half the posters here have heard, listening style - not sampled ... that most of these folks have not heard half of these things in their entirety in order to make a "subjective" comment and choice.

I, personally, have not heard 2 things in that list ... and it is one of the reasons why I am afraid to comment on them, but I have no problem discussing Keith and his abilities, and how it was the ELP fans that killed him, for not appreciating his classical material more, which probably helped record companies tell him that he was just a rock'n'roll'er ... and that was not the case. Embarrassed


Edited by moshkito - September 20 2019 at 07:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2019 at 00:22
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

This is, for me, a strange topic ... I never thought that Keith set out to be outlandish with his music, but at the time, aside from things like Procol Harum, there were no bands that really stood out for having keyboards at the front, and I think that Keith probably thought something like ... I'LL WAKE THEM UP! Heck, all you had to do was see a Moody Blues concert, so you could fall asleep in the first 20 minutes!

Many of these, were all classically trained, and their concentration within the bands they were in, was the MUSIC, not the SOUND, and I think that sometimes we confuse the two. And some of them are quite clearly classical sounding in their work and approach, which, ELP WAS NOT .... which is the marked difference between them and most others ... including Triumvirat, that was very well written, and put together with a lot of attention to the detail of the work to make it better, and not have someone say that they were an ELP cover ... which I do not think they were.

At the time, when MANTICORE released two of their first albums, PFM and BANCO, the first things we heard was ... they don't even sound like ELP, and they did not have to ... they were well defined and put together bands already, and Manticore/Elp did not have anything to add to their work, or more than likely Keith thought it would be a shame to interfere with the incredible work they had already done!

I just think that the "keyboard" madness died down a lot by 1975 or so, specially when bands like PF made it really big, and all of a sudden the sound of a set of instruments aside from the rest of the band, just was not as cool, and agreeable to most listeners as it had been before when we took keyboards for granted, even though saying that some keyboard players were not musically educated ... you gotta be kidding me, right? How about Manfred Mann ... just another idiot with keyboards? I don't think so, but for a long period his keyboards dominated the sound, until that whole thing faded some.

It is my thought, however, that the development of the synthesizers into a much more extensive and usable keyboard, than previously, made a heck of a difference and all of a sudden you could do a lot more than you did before ... and by the time TD had developed SEQUENCERS to an art form, popular music was about to take a turn, and this may have been one of the things that bothered ELP some ... if they had been about the brashness of the sound, all of a sudden ... what are they gonna do? And I'm not sure it materialized at all ... and Kaith, even though wrote a lot of classically oriented material privately, some of which we never saw until way later, which in my estimation would have given ELP a much needed infusion of music and ability to play it.

I don't consider, any of these folks listed, a "copy" ... I just find it strange that we think that any of these could/would have been ELP ... I would rather they had played one of Keith's Piano Concerto's or the many pieces that he was sitting on, and probably killed himself over them ... no one wanted to hear them ... and it took someone like Rachel Flowers many years later, to show us ... however, we only think of Keith as a rock player and not a composer ... so, sadly, all that is left is thinking of the stuff that we think Keith could have done (or ELP) that did not get done, but someone else did.

Keith is one of the great composers of the 20th century ... it just so happens that he was in the rock area of things ... and many of the others would have loved to have that ability, but I don't see many of them extending it. Almost exclusively, they all stuck to songs and music that has a very limited appeal compared to classical works. Keith's ELP stuff is very strong, within the classical element, and specially within a compositional element ... that means that at least one other in that list should get more credit for it (Triumvirat's the story of which is well known of the fights with the record company about the music!), than some of the rest in my book.
 

I just thought it would be a fun thing to do. I tend to suffer a lot with sleepness nights so stuff just starts going round my brain. It seemed like an interesting idea to try and round up artists who were influenced by ELP and perhaps ELP might even have had a little sideways glance at and thought 'yep that is good'. They were a pretty arrogant bunch though so probably didn't really notice anything else and that was maybe one of the things that brought their downfall.

I really wish Emerson had done more with the classical thing. His Piano Concerto is inspired and personally I love Pirates which was apparently taken from an unused film soundtrack score. I think he was a very insecure person and probably the massive punk backlash of the seventies took it's toll on him. I do like his solo albums and its sad that they tend to be ignored . The soundtrack Inferno has some brilliant stuff imo.
BTW Have you read Kevin Gilbert's thoughts on Emerson? He was another incredibly talented guy who appreciated genius when he heard it. Both of course now very sadly missed.



Edited by richardh - September 20 2019 at 00:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 20:32
Illusions on a Double Dimple. Great album. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 14:20
And still another one, Barock Project from Italy. Keyboardist Luca Zabbini is a fan of Emerson and they have done quite some ELP covers.
I find that their most ELP-like album is their debut, Misteriose Voci.




Edited by Gerinski - September 19 2019 at 14:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 12:10
One more from the amazing Italians...New Trolls - Atomic System

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 12:05
I think it was mentioned........but Tritonus- Between the Universes...1975?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 11:27
Thought of another "other"-   Trilogy-Here It Is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 10:28
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Another keyboardist quite influenced by Keith is Erik Norlander. He also uses a big modular Moog in his concerts.
 

I had the pleasure of seeing Erik and his complete synth rig, from the giant modular all the way down to the (borrowed) Mellotron, live, way back in '01.

It wasn't a Rocket Scientists gig. It was Erik — no other musicians in tow. An instrumental set. He played selections from Threshold and some other pieces, like the Space: 1999 theme from the Rocket Scientists' third album Oblivion Days.

Needless to say, that was awesome. That's a lot of gear to haul from your home to a stage. Erik did another solo (non-RS) gig at one of the CalProg fests, but Kelly Keeling was there on vocals. I missed that set, though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 08:50
Contrappunti is Le Orme's best album.

There. I said it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 08:49
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's a shame that we have to think that ... it's not a prog album, so we can consider it less than the other albums.

Not at all...I consider it less because it's their weakest album (Collage to Florian). Nothing below seven out of ten from them in the 70s except for that poor LA smog..4/10 max.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 08:03
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Another keyboardist quite influenced by Keith is Erik Norlander. He also uses a big modular Moog in his concerts.

Agreed ... and he is a good enough player to know when to jump out and when not to, but even on stage, he is not the show off player, and he told me (1999 SF Progressive Music Festival) that he would prefer that the music they put together be remembered, which in my estimation the band LANA LANE AND THE ROCKET SCIENTISTS, put on, one of the most professional, clean and well done sets I have ever seen on a stage, compared to a couple of other bands that went on like they were some godsend to the music!

Erik's work is excellent, but in concert, he's not about being a showman ... he's about the band standing out and doing a great job with the music. And they did on that night and then some! Shamefully, one of the comments I got was ... it has a bit too much metal in it!

That just says that someone wanted to hear only one thing ... and their thinking was not even progressive at that! The only other band in the two day affair that came close to their professionalism and quality? MAGMA ... plain and simple!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 07:55
Another keyboardist quite influenced by Keith is Erik Norlander. He also uses a big modular Moog in his concerts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 07:53
Hi,

This is, for me, a strange topic ... I never thought that Keith set out to be outlandish with his music, but at the time, aside from things like Procol Harum, there were no bands that really stood out for having keyboards at the front, and I think that Keith probably thought something like ... I'LL WAKE THEM UP! Heck, all you had to do was see a Moody Blues concert, so you could fall asleep in the first 20 minutes!

Many of these, were all classically trained, and their concentration within the bands they were in, was the MUSIC, not the SOUND, and I think that sometimes we confuse the two. And some of them are quite clearly classical sounding in their work and approach, which, ELP WAS NOT .... which is the marked difference between them and most others ... including Triumvirat, that was very well written, and put together with a lot of attention to the detail of the work to make it better, and not have someone say that they were an ELP cover ... which I do not think they were.

At the time, when MANTICORE released two of their first albums, PFM and BANCO, the first things we heard was ... they don't even sound like ELP, and they did not have to ... they were well defined and put together bands already, and Manticore/Elp did not have anything to add to their work, or more than likely Keith thought it would be a shame to interfere with the incredible work they had already done!

I just think that the "keyboard" madness died down a lot by 1975 or so, specially when bands like PF made it really big, and all of a sudden the sound of a set of instruments aside from the rest of the band, just was not as cool, and agreeable to most listeners as it had been before when we took keyboards for granted, even though saying that some keyboard players were not musically educated ... you gotta be kidding me, right? How about Manfred Mann ... just another idiot with keyboards? I don't think so, but for a long period his keyboards dominated the sound, until that whole thing faded some.

It is my thought, however, that the development of the synthesizers into a much more extensive and usable keyboard, than previously, made a heck of a difference and all of a sudden you could do a lot more than you did before ... and by the time TD had developed SEQUENCERS to an art form, popular music was about to take a turn, and this may have been one of the things that bothered ELP some ... if they had been about the brashness of the sound, all of a sudden ... what are they gonna do? And I'm not sure it materialized at all ... and Kaith, even though wrote a lot of classically oriented material privately, some of which we never saw until way later, which in my estimation would have given ELP a much needed infusion of music and ability to play it.

I don't consider, any of these folks listed, a "copy" ... I just find it strange that we think that any of these could/would have been ELP ... I would rather they had played one of Keith's Piano Concerto's or the many pieces that he was sitting on, and probably killed himself over them ... no one wanted to hear them ... and it took someone like Rachel Flowers many years later, to show us ... however, we only think of Keith as a rock player and not a composer ... so, sadly, all that is left is thinking of the stuff that we think Keith could have done (or ELP) that did not get done, but someone else did.

Keith is one of the great composers of the 20th century ... it just so happens that he was in the rock area of things ... and many of the others would have loved to have that ability, but I don't see many of them extending it. Almost exclusively, they all stuck to songs and music that has a very limited appeal compared to classical works. Keith's ELP stuff is very strong, within the classical element, and specially within a compositional element ... that means that at least one other in that list should get more credit for it (Triumvirat's the story of which is well known of the fights with the record company about the music!), than some of the rest in my book.


Edited by moshkito - September 19 2019 at 07:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 07:25
Originally posted by Barbu Barbu wrote:

^ You clearly haven't heard Smogmagica.

Contra is pretty solid imo and Smog is definitely their weakest.

I disagree. I like all their early stuff, and while SMOGMAGICA is different, first time with an electric guitar on it, not quite used as a lead, but adding something else to the band ... and the album has a lot of nice, and FUN things in it. It's a shame that we have to think that ... it's not a prog album, so we can consider it less than the other albums.

For me, LE ORME did not slide down for at least 3 or 4 more albums!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b_olariu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 04:10
From the list, Danger Money - UK - to me an excellent album
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2019 at 02:49
Another very good keyboarder who was heavily influenced by Emerson was Thomas Kurzhals of the eastern German Stern Meissen. Best appreciated on "Die Reise zum Mittelpunkt des Menschen" (good luck digging that one out these days... I bought it as LP on a trip to eastern German Rostock when it was still properly communist). 
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