If One Likes Neo Prog...

verslibre wrote: Logan wrote: verslibre wrote: Logan wrote: It's fine liking or not liking something, but saying, or even implying, that others should feel the same way seems incredibly arrogant and narrow-minded to me.   I totally agree. I was making a joke. But some people aren't joking, especially when they go out of their way to knock other users who don't like something they're very fond of. It happened in this thread. Your comment I definitely took as in good humour. Like I said, I think people commonly overrate their own opinions, and many really do find it hard to separate their subjective notions from objective notions. One doesn't need to go into such epistemology, a lot of the time it's just plain rude, and it shows a lack of empathy. Mind you, I've been damned rude at times. I was thinking about getting into this kind of stuff a bit with a comment in one of my recent topics which shared some of my favourite double albums, "Soft Machine is the best of a pretty terrible bunch." There are ways to talk about what you like and don't like without coming across as insulting to other peoples tastes or the artists themselves, or generally haughty, but if you think your tastes are superior, well that is arrogant. There's a lot of negativity just for the sake of being negative. I find it strange that some like to come into appreciation threads again and again to show their disdain for certain music. I am interested to know what people like and don't like and why, but I don't tend to appreciate it when people make negative claims without justification, seemingly say things just to be negative, or tell or infer that others are wrong to like something.. It's a downer for one thing, it's unfriendly, but also it's often not reasonable, and such people are often very hard to reason with and are unwilling to engage in "good faith" dialogue. The positions are intractable as such people are often very narrow minded and conceited. Many people wish to assert their superiority over others. In various cases I think it's the Dunning-Kruger effect. We all have our cognitive biases, and many of can be intellectually dishonest.   Yes, I did see that comment...right after I had voted for Tangerine Dream's Zeit. The albums in your poll clearly don't figure into his (or her) listening routine, but d*mn the torpedoes! I've been reading music (etc.) forums for over twenty years, so it's easy for me to ignore. We've got to make space for the new arrivals.

With that individual I know we have some very different tastes. Me having been more into the experimental side, and him into the more melodic rock side. I shouldn't care, unless I have to do moderation, how people express themselves. Better for me to improve on my own expression.

I've been forum posting for about twenty years, and sometimes it just gets harder for me to deal with. No progress is made. I used to say that the only negativity that bothers me is the negativity of some people in response to other people's negativity, but that was never really accurate. It hasn't been that big a deal to me, more of an interest really.

I used not to mind such negativity really cause I enjoyed the chance to do battle, and and at the forum I belonged to before here, it was much more discussion/debate oriented, and flame wars were a common occurrence. I was never burnt in them cause to me it was all for fun. But now I'm twenty years older, and 20 times as tired, and such stuff, such repetitive behaviour all too often, is more boring than anything. I've realised to not bother engaging such posts at all, though I forget sometimes and then regret it. Not because it leads to flamewars, but often because they don't engage with your content back. And because I then feel guilty, and tend to look stupid for engaging to boot. Sometimes it's like "Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes", and it's truly invigorating, but by the time you're ready to launch, they've already left. That's no fun!

verslibre wrote: Logan wrote: It's fine liking or not liking something, but saying, or even implying, that others should feel the same way seems incredibly arrogant and narrow-minded to me.   I totally agree. I was making a joke. But some people aren't joking, especially when they go out of their way to knock other users who don't like something they're very fond of. It happened in this thread.

Your comment I definitely took as in good humour. Like I said, I think people commonly overrate their own opinions, and many really do find it hard to separate their subjective notions from objective notions. One doesn't need to go into such epistemology, a lot of the time it's just plain rude, and it shows a lack of empathy. Mind you, I've been damned rude at times.

I was thinking about getting into this kind of stuff a bit with a comment in one of my recent topics which shared some of my favourite double albums, "Soft Machine is the best of a pretty terrible bunch." There are ways to talk about what you like and don't like without coming across as insulting to other peoples tastes or the artists themselves, or generally haughty, but if you think your tastes are superior, well that is arrogant. There's a lot of negativity just for the sake of being negative. I find it strange that some like to come into appreciation threads again and again to show their disdain for certain music. I am interested to know what people like and don't like and why, but I don't tend to appreciate it when people make negative claims without justification, seemingly say things just to be negative, or tell or infer that others are wrong to like something.. It's a downer for one thing, it's unfriendly, but also it's often not reasonable, and such people are often very hard to reason with and are unwilling to engage in "good faith" dialogue. The positions are intractable as such people are often very narrow minded and conceited. Many people wish to assert their superiority over others. In various cases I think it's the Dunning-Kruger effect. We all have our cognitive biases, and many of can be intellectually dishonest.

Edited by Logan - April 16 2020 at 14:20

Cristi wrote: Logan wrote: If Brave is barely rated, at least at PA, one must be comparing it to the biggest. At 1047 ratings at PA for Brave, those are the kinds of numbers I could hardly dream of for the majority of my favourite albums in the database. Even for a big name like Magma, its most rated album never cracked 1000 ratings and most never cracked 500 ratings. Even the mighty First Utterance by Comus only has 551 ratings. As for what is a very long-lived band that I often call my favourite overall, Art Zoyd, it's most rated album has 101 ratings. Even the mighty Pheadra by Tangerine Dream has about 400 less ratings than Brave, and its most rated album Rubycon has 100 less. I was kidding, hence the emoticon.  I love Brave, ever since it came out, it's one of Marillion's best works, I've never understood why some say it's overrated. Whatever appreciation it gets, it's well deserved.

Ah, wit, something of which I wish I had more (though I do try).

I thought you were more laughing more at what verslibre said. I'm actually terrible at reading emoticons. I use the winky face most when I'm kidding like that, but I usually don't (people get the humour or they don't). By the way, I have heard Brave and I liked it.

I was thinking maybe it's all comparative, since so much of what I listen to is lucky to get more than 100 ratings at PA. I could understand it being a divisive album, and I actually think that the best art commonly does divide opinion.

The whole overrated/underrated/ best/worst thing is often ridiculous. I think the problem is that people tend to overrate their own opinions. It's fine liking or not liking something, but saying, or even implying, that others should feel the same way seems incredibly arrogant and narrow-minded to me.

Edited by Logan - April 16 2020 at 12:30

If Brave is barely rated, at least at PA, one must be comparing it to the biggest. I have a differnet perspective.

At 1047 ratings at PA for Brave, those are the kinds of numbers I could hardly dream of for the majority of my favourite albums in the database. Even for a big name like Magma, its most rated album never cracked 1000 ratings and most never cracked 500 ratings. Even the mighty First Utterance by Comus only has 551 ratings. As for what is a very long-lived band that I often call my favourite overall, Art Zoyd, it's most rated album has 101 ratings. Even the mighty Pheadra by Tangerine Dream has about 400 less ratings than Brave, and its most rated album Rubycon has 100 less. Even Klaus Schulze's Mirage most popular album only has 304 ratings. Bubu's Anabelas has 566 ratings. Evn Henry Cow's most popular alum (certainly a much talked about band in the forum) only has 263 ratings.

I've called Frano Leprino's Integrati... Disintegrati and Jean-CLaude-Vannier's L'enfant assassin des mouches my favourite albums before and they have 58 ratings and 39 ratings respectively, but I guess my tastes are a little more off the beaten path than most.


Edited by Logan - April 16 2020 at 12:03

verslibre wrote: I guess it's safe to say Brave is overrated!

lazland wrote: SteveG wrote: richardh wrote: SteveG wrote: If one likes neo prog then one must listen to this: Marillion-Brave.   sorry that album bored the pants off me although I do like a lot of the Hogarth era Marillion. Sounds That Cannot Be Made is the one that I really enjoy as well as Seasons End. Both are a bit underrated imo. Are you daft? Brave was Marillion's finest hour. Brave was neo prog's finest hour. That wasn't fair of me so let start again. Are you daft? Yep. In my opinion, the finest, and most emotional, album ever made. Simple as. The story, and its conclusion, are enough to make even the hardest chap weep, especially as it is loosely based upon real events.

 

Ridgeback wrote: Since we have to have a label... and listens extensively to Airbag, Pendragon, Porcupine Tree, SW, Sylvan, Anathema, Frequency Drift, Gazpacho, Mileneum, (some) Marillion, IQ, and RPWL... suggestion for others in that vein? Groups that sound more Pink Floydish. I’m not at all into Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, VDDG etc. Thoughts?

Tr3nity are a good shout too...Two releases both of the finest quality...

SteveG wrote: richardh wrote: SteveG wrote: If one likes neo prog then one must listen to this: Marillion-Brave.   sorry that album bored the pants off me although I do like a lot of the Hogarth era Marillion. Sounds That Cannot Be Made is the one that I really enjoy as well as Seasons End. Both are a bit underrated imo. Are you daft? Brave was Marillion's finest hour. Brave was neo prog's finest hour. That wasn't fair of me so let start again. Are you daft?

Yep. In my opinion, the finest, and most emotional, album ever made. Simple as. The story, and its conclusion, are enough to make even the hardest chap weep, especially as it is loosely based upon real events.