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Is prog still an underground genre?

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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 05 2018 at 06:19
Hi,

In my experience, in Santa Barbara with Space Pirate Radio and Guy Guden, there was no such thing as "underground", and he played anything from here to Pluto and back, that would make PA look silly, and picky!

The issue, in my book, is that folks think that the only "validity" there is to ANY MUSIC out there is that it "sells", and that "my friend has it". And that is a very poor look at the album, the music and the artist, and it makes for a sad representation of the music. AND, to think that those folks are the ones that created the "perception" of the definition of "progressive" (and later "prog"), and decided that one set of bands were top tier and the others were bottom tier.

In my book, and experience, when you do that, you have, in effect, shut down a lot of your ability to listen to VASTLY different things, and you end up (later) comparing everything to thosse favorites, and thus making it very difficult to find, appreciate, and even listen to, anything new and interesting ... because it sounds the same as it employs a Farfisa organ, and too many bands already did that, or a Mellotron and many bands already did that!

There were at the time, and even today on the radio FM dial, a few college stations that are a bit way out there in playing this or that, and some have hard core rap, or hard core progressive, and hard core this or that, a lot of which we do not listen to or discuss. I mean, I first heard BENT KNEE on one of these places, not even on PA!

Music is everywhere, and there are all kinds. The only "underground" is what our MIND decides, since you are not in another city or area to even know that such a band was actually known in their area, and sold well. 

It's never what we think ... but we like to use that as an excuse for the truth. And I hate the thought that NY and Tokyo will always sell more than anyone else, and therefore everyone else from a small town can not possibly be progressive or play prog, because no one is listening to them ... it's just a horrible way to look at music, and we, specially here on PA, should not be doing that!

We need to respect the music better. The only underground is in our minds. Why would we even mention the bands, otherwise?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2018 at 04:33
Underground? No, it's rather a "niche", just like goth rock, abstract hip-hop or cumbia outside of South America.

The fact that some bands as Porcupine Tree or Mars Volta (not forgetting about Muse or Radiohead) are somewhat big sellers don't mean that a large audience cares about the classics (except for Genesis or Pink Floyd) or the Neo Prog (except Marillion, which still can fill some middlesized venues in Paris - not Lyon, not Marseille) or even newer bands.

Oh, and let me tell you: among most of musical circles I could make my way through (Jazz, Alt/Indie Pop Rock, so-called experimental rock), Prog is NOT seen as "cool", "fresh" or even acceptable.
I even heard a friend of mine calling the music of Flying Luttenbachers as "fascist" (I'm still trying to understand...) or my brother warning me that "there's no turning back after starting listening to Robert Wyatt"! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2018 at 23:15
[How on earth is this a "blog"?]

It's an editorial rant known in the digital age as a blog. Wink The question is hypothetical since I already have my opinion but wanted to share it and allow others to chime in as well(hence the option to respond). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2018 at 16:26
[From my experience, Pink Floyd is a household name, as is Genesis. KC, Yes, ELP and Tull are known by people who are properly interested in music, which is a minority. Probably not even by all those. ]

Unless we are counting only pop music fans I don't think Genesis are more of a household name these days than Rush(who you didn't mention). With the possible exception of KC I think most classic rock fans know the others you mentioned. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2018 at 12:57
From my experience, Pink Floyd is a household name, as is Genesis. KC, Yes, ELP and Tull are known by people who are properly interested in music, which is a minority. Probably not even by all those.
But then I have no idea what constitutes "Underground"; this may not be that helpful a category. Despite what I just wrote, there are loads of complete genres that are even less well known than any of the prog "big 6".
In 2016 Sigur Ros headlined the Citadel festival in London. This was acknowledged as a bold choice, and the festival isn't the biggest there is, but still.
Then I don't even think that the whole of what we call "Prog" qualifies as a single genre, but that's another issue.
I have no idea.

By the way, why is it that threads come up in this forum so often in a random place? How on earth is this a "blog"? Why on the other hand do bands that nobody knows regularly announce their new music in the Lounge, which I'd have thought is for general topics? Etc.


Edited by Lewian - June 04 2018 at 13:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2018 at 21:15
^Not a good argument. Suburban teens are often the first to buy underground or cult albums. A better argument for those two not being cult is that they both made the top fifty in billboard charts. Even so I would argue they are cult albums but so are relayer, larks tongues in aspic and 2112. However, if Genesis weren't a cult band at that time then neither were Gentle Giant because GG were playing the same sized venues. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 03 2018 at 21:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2018 at 20:30
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

[(and everything Genesis released went gold in the States from Selling England by the Pound onward, and their first platinum was And Then There Were Three -- ]

Actually, technically speaking that's not true. "And then there were three" was their first gold album but it didn't go platinum until 1988. All the albums from Abacab to Invisible Touch went platinum before it. Also, none of their seventies albums except for ATTWT went gold until 1990. I'm not sure when they stopped being a cult band because I'm not old enough to really know for sure(plus it's difficult to measure). However, my guess would be when they started to play arenas and that didn't happen until the late seventies just as Steve Hackett left the band. It seems they didn't get really huge until the eighties though. I would say they surpassed Yes's popularity by the time they  released Abacab. If there's a space between cult and mainstream success I'm sure Genesis occupied it as far as that time period in the seventies right before punk came along. 

All I'll add is that if teenagers in suburban Detroit were buying The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and Trick of the Tail as soon as they were released, it's likely they were no longer a cult band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2018 at 09:56
[Have you ever met one person who hasn't heard of Crimson, Floyd, Tull, Yes, etc? I haven't.]

Yes, sometime last year I talked to a guy who seemed to be a fan of Yes but never heard of King Crimson. I thought that was odd too especially since he was probably around 55 years old. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2018 at 07:10
[(and everything Genesis released went gold in the States from Selling England by the Pound onward, and their first platinum was And Then There Were Three -- ]

Actually, technically speaking that's not true. "And then there were three" was their first gold album but it didn't go platinum until 1988. All the albums from Abacab to Invisible Touch went platinum before it. Also, none of their seventies albums except for ATTWT went gold until 1990. I'm not sure when they stopped being a cult band because I'm not old enough to really know for sure(plus it's difficult to measure). However, my guess would be when they started to play arenas and that didn't happen until the late seventies just as Steve Hackett left the band. It seems they didn't get really huge until the eighties though. I would say they surpassed Yes's popularity by the time they  released Abacab. If there's a space between cult and mainstream success I'm sure Genesis occupied it as far as that time period in the seventies right before punk came along. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 03 2018 at 07:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2018 at 06:12
Hmmm. I can only talk about my experience. Since prog started out in England perhaps the genre is much more popular in English speaking countries. I have heard people say they love bands like Tull and Yes but didn't even know what the term progressive rock meant. I would still say it's become much more popular due to the internet exposure of bands once forgotten. But i could also apply that statement to all forms of underground music as well :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 23:03
Most of the mates in my working place haven`t ever heard Crimson, Tull, Yes and not even Genesis (I took Genesis s/t cassette to our working places car and two others in that haven´t ever heard that, well those were born in the nineties & 2000, the older people probably know eighties Genesis). On the other hand everybody seems to know Pink Floyd, but not knowing it as a progband.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 22:54
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Rate your music is a pretty small niche within the music community(if there is such a thing). There's a lot of prog fans on the Hoffman forums too but it doesn't mean either of them represent the larger music listening audience. I don't believe either of those sites has any more members than are on here and not even all RYM members are even prog fans.

RYM is much larger. Just look at the numbers. 

PA's #1 is Close To The Edge with 4104 ratings.

RYM has 13,286 ratings for it. RYM is much more popular and if you scan the entire charts and count the number of prog albums, it's quite large.

Prog is mainstream. Everyone has heard of the biggest bands within it. Have you ever met one person who hasn't heard of Crimson, Floyd, Tull, Yes, etc? I haven't.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 22:44
As Dark Elf has already said in many posts, I think it will be ridiculous to say prog underground specially in the begin of the seventies in UK. It was very popular that time there even all the progbands didn´t became million sellers (I believe there hasn´t been any genre in popular culture where every band become million sellers). Anyway Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes, Camel, Jethro Tull, ELP, Moody Blues, Hawkwind and also King Crimson in some albums were top of the charts that time. Also, even Can has one hit in the seventies.

In Finland there was a period from 1995-2002 when prog was more popular than in Finland at the seventies. Some progalbums of made then were in the Finnish charts. But at the moment, in Finland and in the world I think prog is underground. No progalbums has been in the charts in many years as far as I know, really you can´t hear any prog in the radios (except this day when I am going to play it into my show).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 21:26
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by mbzr48 mbzr48 wrote:

Even second-tier bands like Camel, Caravan, PFM, Renaissance, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Strawbs, Nektar, Amon Duul II, Van der Graaf Generator and a long list of Canterbury collectives had decent careers during that era. Not to mention Can, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Faust, Kraftwerk and the Krautrock crowd". WHAT??? you call those bands "second-tier"Disapprove even if we would argue about it, Camel, Banco, VDGG & Tangerine can't be in this list IMHO

The original poster was referring to "prog" as an underground genre. I was pointing out that, at least in the 1970s, prog was not an underground style of music; on the contrary, many bands were major arena/stadium draws and sold gold and platinum albums on both sides of the pond.

The "second tier" designation refers to the simple fact that the bands referenced sold more albums to relatives (likely out of parental or filial guilt) than to the record-buying public. Even so, the bands had nice careers in that time period, even if they often appeared as second on the bill. I should also note that I referred to the krautrock scene in a separate sentence, noting the popularity of different styles of alleged prog.

I would argue that it was even mostly underground in the seventies aside from a few bands(Yes, ELP, JT, Pink Floyd and possibly Genesis(who really weren't that big until the eighties). So even if prog was mainstream from say 71-77, it seems to me that after 78 or so prog became underground and it stayed there for a while. THe million dollar question is is it still underground? 

I rattled off numerous prog bands that had gold and platinum albums in the 70s (and everything Genesis released went gold in the States from Selling England by the Pound onward, and their first platinum was And Then There Were Three -- it's not like they were "underground" in Britain, France or the States from '74 onward), and I also indicated several non-prog bands like The Who and Zeppelin suddenly started coming out with very prog songs. Even Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath got proggy for a minute.

Prog was an actual "thing" at the time, and the difficulty of the songs, requiring elite instrumental mastery, lengthy compositions and at least a passing knowledge of classical or jazz music led to the inevitable backlash of the devolved and simplistic Punk movement by the mid 70s (helped along by the music industry and NY and London t**t critics). But it's not like Prog suddenly disappeared. I went to numerous sold out prog concerts at major venues in the late 70s (Floyd, Tull, Genesis and Yes).

P.S. I guess what I am saying is that "prog" was an acceptable part of the average rock fans diet in the 70s. Experimentation, as evidenced by the rise and popularity of jazz-fusion or the Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead playing 10 or 20 minute long improvisations was part of the listening process. 

It's the reason why a Yes album with 3 songs goes multi-platinum, or Tull's Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play can go to #1 in the States, or that Queen can release the 6 minute long "Bohemian Rhapsody" and sell a million singles, or Led Zeppelin had fans drooling over the 7 minute long "No Quarter" or the 8:37 long "Kashmir". Hell, even "Stairway to Heaven" was over 8 minutes long and you'd hear it on the radio nearly every day. I remember even a 12 minute long song like Traffic's "Low Spark of High Heeled Boys" got enough airplay to be voted to a Top 100 songs list by listeners for several years on FM Stations in Detroit.


Edited by The Dark Elf - June 02 2018 at 21:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 20:46
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by mbzr48 mbzr48 wrote:

Even second-tier bands like Camel, Caravan, PFM, Renaissance, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Strawbs, Nektar, Amon Duul II, Van der Graaf Generator and a long list of Canterbury collectives had decent careers during that era. Not to mention Can, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Faust, Kraftwerk and the Krautrock crowd". WHAT??? you call those bands "second-tier"Disapprove even if we would argue about it, Camel, Banco, VDGG & Tangerine can't be in this list IMHO

The original poster was referring to "prog" as an underground genre. I was pointing out that, at least in the 1970s, prog was not an underground style of music; on the contrary, many bands were major arena/stadium draws and sold gold and platinum albums on both sides of the pond.

The "second tier" designation refers to the simple fact that the bands referenced sold more albums to relatives (likely out of parental or filial guilt) than to the record-buying public. Even so, the bands had nice careers in that time period, even if they often appeared as second on the bill. I should also note that I referred to the krautrock scene in a separate sentence, noting the popularity of different styles of alleged prog.

I would argue that it was even mostly underground in the seventies aside from a few bands(Yes, ELP, JT, Pink Floyd and possibly Genesis(who really weren't that big until the eighties). So even if prog was mainstream from say 71-77, it seems to me that after 78 or so prog became underground and it stayed there for a while. THe million dollar question is is it still underground? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 20:41
Rate your music is a pretty small niche within the music community(if there is such a thing). There's a lot of prog fans on the Hoffman forums too but it doesn't mean either of them represent the larger music listening audience. I don't believe either of those sites has any more members than are on here and not even all RYM members are even prog fans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 20:17
Originally posted by mbzr48 mbzr48 wrote:

Even second-tier bands like Camel, Caravan, PFM, Renaissance, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Strawbs, Nektar, Amon Duul II, Van der Graaf Generator and a long list of Canterbury collectives had decent careers during that era. Not to mention Can, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Faust, Kraftwerk and the Krautrock crowd". WHAT??? you call those bands "second-tier"Disapprove even if we would argue about it, Camel, Banco, VDGG & Tangerine can't be in this list IMHO

The original poster was referring to "prog" as an underground genre. I was pointing out that, at least in the 1970s, prog was not an underground style of music; on the contrary, many bands were major arena/stadium draws and sold gold and platinum albums on both sides of the pond.

The "second tier" designation refers to the simple fact that the bands referenced sold more albums to relatives (likely out of parental or filial guilt) than to the record-buying public. Even so, the bands had nice careers in that time period, even if they often appeared as second on the bill. I should also note that I referred to the krautrock scene in a separate sentence, noting the popularity of different styles of alleged prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 20:16
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Just look at Rate Your Music's top 5000 list. Just in the top 100 are 16 albums that are considered prog on PA. This is a site that rates ALL music. True the classics are still the most popular but they are more popular than EVER! So NOOOOOOO prog is mainstream.

2The Dark Side of the Moon
Pink Floyd
philosophical, atmospheric, mellow, introspective, existential



27Animals
Pink Floyd
Animals (1977)
political, philosophical, pessimistic, sarcastic, concept album
38Red
King Crimson
Red (1974)
anxious, uncommon time signatures, dark, heavy, technical
62Bitches Brew
Miles Davis
Bitches Brew (1970)
instrumental, psychedelic, complex, improvisation, surreal
64Tago Mago
Can
Tago Mago (1971)
psychedelic, surreal, hypnotic, improvisation, rhythmic
68Close to the Edge
Yes
epic, uplifting, complex, technical, fantasy
76Meddle
Pink Floyd
Meddle (1971)
mellow, psychedelic, atmospheric, mysterious, surreal
80Hot Rats
Frank Zappa
Hot Rats (1969)
complex, playful, energetic, technical, instrumental
86Spirit of Eden
Talk Talk
atmospheric, passionate, religious, peaceful, introspective
89Laughing Stock
Talk Talk
atmospheric, sombre, improvisation, religious, introspective
90Future Days
Can
Future Days (1973)
warm, hypnotic, atmospheric, mellow, rhythmic


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbzr48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 20:04
Even second-tier bands like Camel, Caravan, PFM, Renaissance, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Strawbs, Nektar, Amon Duul II, Van der Graaf Generator and a long list of Canterbury collectives had decent careers during that era. Not to mention Can, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Faust, Kraftwerk and the Krautrock crowd". WHAT??? you call those bands "second-tier"Disapprove even if we would argue about it, Camel, Banco, VDGG & Tangerine can't be in this list IMHO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 18:57
Prog was "underground" for perhaps the first couple of years after the release of In the Court of the Crimson King, but from 1971-1979 you had multi-platinum albums from Yes, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Rush, ELO, Kansas and Supertramp, and gold albums from ELP, Mike Oldfield, Frank Zappa and The Moody Blues. 

In that time period you also had major rock bands who weren't necessarily into "prog" by definition playing decidedly prog compositions: Led Zeppelin, The Who, Queen and Santana, as well as jazz taking a decided rock sound with the fusion movement led by Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return to Forever, Jeff Beck, Pat Metheny and Billy Cobham.

Even second-tier bands like Camel, Caravan, PFM, Renaissance, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Strawbs, Nektar, Amon Duul II, Van der Graaf Generator and a long list of Canterbury collectives had decent careers during that era. Not to mention Can, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Faust, Kraftwerk and the Krautrock crowd.

If anything, the golden age passed and the genre has regressed into the back alley. Marillion had platinum albums in Britain during the 80s, Yes and Rush continued to sell well, Tull had a couple gold albums in the 80s, and a couple Dream Theater and Mars Volta albums went gold in the 1990s and early 2000s. Steven Wilson isn't really even a big selling performer in relation to the folks he emulated in the 1970s.

It's a fringe niche now, really. Rock in general is fading from the market.
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