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stonebeard 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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 Topic: Are you stubborn about the genre changes?
Posted: October 27 2007 at 17:06 |
Not to belittle the Genre Teams' work, but I don't really update my perception of where a band is now in relation to where it was when I first noticed them. For example, I think of Mike Oldfield as Art Rock, when now he is in Crossover Prog. I'm sure the genres probably make more sense now, but I don't really give notice to the new categories the bands are under. The concept of categorization is a bit arbitrary anyway. This poll can also apply to genres that you may recognize but ProgArchives does not at all. In essence, do you let this "prog community" define the boundaries of genres, or do you do it yourself. Be civil as always. 
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cynthiasmallet
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 545
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 17:13 |
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Couldn't give a rats TBH
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Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat?
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moreitsythanyou
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 17:26 |
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I know everyone has the best intentions, but some of it is overkill. Like Crossover was needed, but most of the others weren't necessary. It's nothing to lose sleep over, just pointless overclassification. It's been done and I'm more than fine with it. I didn't feel like there was a need for it, but if others want to make more genres, that's their decision and I'm fine with it.
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 17:41 |
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the changes.. those done.. and those proposed are done for one reason..
and one reason only... to help people navigate the murky waters of
prog. It is up to site visitors whether to use them as guides or not..
and guides are exactly what they are. Unless we had a sub for
each band.. we could never accurately pigeonhole.. the
un-pigeonable hahhahah. They are guides nothing more ... I hope
most know that but the few that see the various subgenres as some sort
of high
temples of 'insert various musical quanitifier' prog purity.
Edited by micky - October 27 2007 at 17:42
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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reality
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 318
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 17:45 |
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I do not like genres, I do not like the term Prog, I just like music!
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:08 |
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I use a far more sophisticated classification method. I have two categories, separated by a semi-permeable membrane: stuff I like and stuff I don't.
I take micky's point, though. The categories aren't for the experienced proghead, but for the newbie. And they cause endless debate because so many of them cross whatever boundaries we try to impose on them.
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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2819
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:18 |
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I have enjoyed every genre change thus far...it's wonderful.
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Points: 46833
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:40 |
 russellk wrote:
I use a far more sophisticated classification method. I
have two categories, separated by a semi-permeable membrane: stuff I
like and stuff I don't.
I
take micky's point, though. The categories aren't for the experienced
proghead, but for the newbie. And they cause endless debate because so
many of them cross whatever boundaries we try to impose on them.
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the debates are completely pointless to be honest.... some of the forum
understands the current subs are just guides and not reflective of the
career as a whole.. while others are actually concerned
about stupid sh*t like like sticking round bands into square holes like
whether Zappa belong in eclectic, J-R or RIO based upon..scores and
scores of different albums for example. A case in point of the
failure and stupidity of seeing these subs, interpreting them
as anything other than a guide. I often joke.. but is true.. that
you can just as easliy put Yes in Xover as much as put them Symphonic..
or even put them in eclectic... along with the other 95% of the bands
here that fit the definition.
The primary overriding concern is.... listener expectation.. not
musical masterbation trying to interpet all this completely musically..
that which every other member here might see differently.
Edited by micky - October 27 2007 at 18:44
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:41 |
russellk wrote:
I take micky's point, though. The categories aren't for the experienced proghead, but for the newbie. And they cause endless debate because so many of them cross whatever boundaries we try to impose on them.
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I absolutely disagree, the sub-genres, categories and styles are not for the newbie who comes with knowledge of one or two bands he like, the sub-genres are for the experienced Proghead who wants to research more than the average fan and investigate influences, sounds and styles.
Yes, I like to research for influences, eras, sounds, schools, because I’m a fan of Progressive Rock, but the new user wants to find some bands and gives a damn for 20 artificial divisions, he knows all the bands related to Metal are in prog Metal, and wants to find that.
Take for example the Prog Metal newbie, he comes knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, he doesn’t know or care about Experimental Post Metal, Tec/Extreme Prog Metal, he just wants to find bands that are similar, he goes to any other Prog site and finds all of them under Prog Metal, one after the other in alphabetical order, then he comes here and has to dig into three sub-genres that don’t make sense for him, I an afraid he/she will get bored and leave for a simpler place where he can find all the bands together.
It’s already done and we must accept it and respect the work done by the PM team, but I believe that this is not a positive change.
When I started to listen Prog I liked Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, PFM, ELP and a couple more bands, I call them all Progressive Music (The term Rock was added later and it’s more accurate), then I discovered neo Prog, that Jethro Tull was Prog Folk or Pink Floyd Psyche/Space Rock, I understand them because I seen the change, but a new guy who comes here and finds three Prog Metals, a Prog Related and a Prog Crossover will have a salad bar in his head.
Genres should be wide and simple, the simpler, the better, I read people complaining about other sites who have almost 100 sub-genres, we’re going the same way.
So lets be sincere, this changes are positive in some cases, but don’t say they are directed for the newbie who will navigate in an endless sea of genres, this multiple sub-genres are for the Proghead who eats, dreams and breathes Progressive Rock, and he’s the only one who will care to investigate the slight difference between crossover and Prog Related.
I really wish this is for good, but I have my doubts, I believe in wider and simple sub-genres, the less and easy to find, the better.
Iván
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 18:55 |
I agree, well said Iván. maybe the changes in metal or "post" sections are intended to "justify" being too much inclusive and really objectable many times...or to just make it look like if it was "normal" or widely accepted by Prog-heads... 
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:01 |
P.H.P. wrote:
I agree, well said Iván.
maybe the changes in metal or "post" sections are intended to "justify" being too much inclusive and really objectable many times...or to just make it look like if it was "normal" or widely accepted by Prog-heads...
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Ivan's post was well stated and was valid in his concerns and points...
yours though... reeks of stirring sh*t up. The problem isn't the genre
teams... it is those who can't accept others have different notions of
what is.. and is not prog. The site is inclusive. We all want everyone to stay and be happy though  We all have our different visions of the site... but
all are made with the best interests in the site in mind... not trying
to justify inclusions that some might find objectionable.
Edited by micky - October 27 2007 at 19:11
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:08 |
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PHP, you seem to be a very traditional progger, which is not bad in itself. A lot of ProgArchives' additions have been very controversial, and no one will agree on everything. Also, if the site owners (who lurk in the shadows, carrying on with their "lives" and such) want a band in, they're in. I believe this was the case with Zep and the Beatles. But note their categories; they're considered related (tricky term) to prog, or highly influential to it. The site has an inclusive position (sometimes I personally wonder if too inclusive), but no decisions are made irrationally. We trust collabs who know controversial artists well to be as little biased as possible in their input for additions. No one want to make the site look like a joke by adding his favorite artists by the most meager of connections.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:09 |
Let's try and prevent the Report Button from getting red hot tonight please people. It's Midnight here in the UK and I'm trying to watch South Park. 
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P.H.P.
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 334
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:16 |
stonebeard wrote:
PHP, you seem to be a very traditional progger, which is not bad in itself. A lot of ProgArchives' additions have been very controversial, and no one will agree on everything. Also, if the site owners (who lurk in the shadows, carrying on with their "lives" and such) want a band in, they're in. I believe this was the case with Zep and the Beatles. But note their categories; they're considered related (tricky term) to prog, or highly influential to it. The site has an inclusive position (sometimes I personally wonder if too inclusive), but no decisions are made irrationally. We trust collabs who know controversial artists well to be as little biased as possible in their input for additions. No one want to make the site look like a joke by adding his favorite artists by the most meager of connections.
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You spotted very good points I missed...I've been thinking and seeing those 2 last lines for some time now...I think some people could find pleasure or something doing that...
Edited by P.H.P. - October 27 2007 at 19:16
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:26 |
I dont know why people have to make it seem like new genres are bad, with the recent metal brake up, more bands will be recognizized and appreciated.
In the old PM genre there was none of these bands in the top twenty:
Isis
Death
Anathema
Atheist
Kayo Dot
Deadsoul tribe ect ect..
Those bands will be recognized faster and popularity will grow.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:34 |
schizoid_man77 wrote:
I dont know why people have to make it seem like
new genres are bad, with the recent metal brake up, more bands
will be recognizized and appreciated.
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that should be the point here shouldn't it. Never quite
understood the problem with new subs either. I find it funny to
be be worried more about how this site looks to others... rather than
the people who actually come here and use our site hahhaha. Come
here to try to find new prog bands and explore prog. If
having 500 bands tucked into one large sub-genre makes it easier for
those down the ladder a bit to be recognized and appreciated.. I'll eat
my hat. Splitting them up might not gain them legions of fans
here.. but it WILL make them easier to find at least. That my
friends.. is a good change.
my two cents. Just a difference in seeing things of course
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65250
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:52 |
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think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together, say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more likely to go next time?
Edited by Atavachron - October 27 2007 at 19:55
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 19:53 |
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The first one!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21151
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:13 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Take for example the Prog Metal newbie, he comes knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, he doesn’t know or care about Experimental Post Metal, Tec/Extreme Prog Metal, he just wants to find bands that are similar, he goes to any other Prog site and finds all of them under Prog Metal, one after the other in alphabetical order, then he comes here and has to dig into three sub-genres that don’t make sense for him, I an afraid he/she will get bored and leave for a simpler place where he can find all the bands together.
If someone comes here, knowing Dream Theater and maybe Symphony X, then the recent change means that he will be able to find similar bands more easily. That's what the whole thing is all about. And when he's ready for the more unusual stuff he moves on to the two new categories.
It’s already done and we must accept it and respect the work done by the PM team, but I believe that this is not a positive change.
Time will tell ... in the meantime we might begin creating schools like you did in Symphonic Prog.
When I started to listen Prog I liked Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, PFM, ELP and a couple more bands, I call them all Progressive Music (The term Rock was added later and it’s more accurate), then I discovered neo Prog, that Jethro Tull was Prog Folk or Pink Floyd Psyche/Space Rock, I understand them because I seen the change, but a new guy who comes here and finds three Prog Metals, a Prog Related and a Prog Crossover will have a salad bar in his head. What I don't understand about those who constantly criticise genres: If you don't like them, why don't you simply browse the A-Z list? It's not like you *have* to use them.
Genres should be wide and simple, the simpler, the better, I read people complaining about other sites who have almost 100 sub-genres, we’re going the same way.
Another example of demagogy (look it up at wikipedia) ... a mild one but still. We create 2 new genres and it took us about 2 years to get there. There is no danger of new genres being created every day.
So lets be sincere, this changes are positive in some cases, but don’t say they are directed for the newbie who will navigate in an endless sea of genres, this multiple sub-genres are for the Proghead who eats, dreams and breathes Progressive Rock, and he’s the only one who will care to investigate the slight difference between crossover and Prog Related.
My advice to a newbie regarding the three PM genres would be this: Focus on the main Progressive Metal genre to discover what PM originally was like and how these bands and their successors developed, and then explore the two other genres to find out about the more experimental metal bands which made their music progressive in more unusual ways.
I really wish this is for good, but I have my doubts, I believe in wider and simple sub-genres, the less and easy to find, the better.
Iván
Perhaps we can get M@x to implement pages which combine genres, for example one which lists all metal genre bands, another one which lists both post rock and post metal, another one which lists RIO/Avant, Krautrock and Zeuhl, one which lists Eclectic Prog and Symphonic Prog etc.. This way we can have the best of both worlds ... people who want specific lists can use the genres, the others can use the combined pages.
Think outside the box!!!!
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 20:25 |
Atavachron wrote:
think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in
thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together,
say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and
traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover
several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a
record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog
all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid
if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record
shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more
likely to go next time?
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don't know whether to kiss you David ( probably not a good idea ) or envy you.
well said.... much better than I could say hahhaha... 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Are you stubborn about the genre changes?
