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Blacksword View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 12 2020 at 04:39
All around the world, statues of divisive historical figures are being taken down, either by force or through locally made democratic decisions.

Should all future statues and monuments, erected to commemorate characters from the past, be restricted to sports legends and artists (including musicians) and exclude anyone known for their political, military or religious work and influence? Bearing in mind that one persons hero, is another's villain.


Genuine question.

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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

All around the world, statues of divisive historical figures are being taken down, either by force or through locally made democratic decisions.

Should all future statues and monuments, erected to commemorate characters from the past, be restricted to sports legends and artists (including musicians) and exclude anyone known for their political, military or religious work and influence? Bearing in mind that one persons hero, is another's villain.


Genuine question.


Even that is unlikely to appease all, witness the Margaret Court Arena controversy. 
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Tricky one really. I suspect there are a number of sports legends and artists who have a less than squeaky clean past.
I guess the question is does the good done by someone outweigh the bad? To be honest I don't know the answer. The recent Baden Powell case impacts me as a Scout Leader and I must admit I wasn't aware he had any dealings with the Nazis but we have to look at the facts and make a judgement from there.
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I tend to think it's OK to put up a statue if somebody is genuinely esteemed at some point, and to put it down if times change and the general evaluation of that person changes, too. I don't think a statue must appease everyone, but if a too big part of the population for too good reasons thinks this person shouldn't be honoured in this way, then the statue should go - or not even be erected in the first place. Not that complicated really. Just say goodbye to the idea that values are eternal.
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"Remembering the past...." is the key here in your post title, which IMO needs to be appreciated more. It is the past and it is history. I think we all know without the past/history we cannot move forward and or correct injustices. 
Going forward I seriously doubt you will see anymore statues or memorials or such erected of any political, military or religious figures. Maybe in countries like N.Korea, but in most other I doubt it, in that case I am ok with it.
What I don't think is right is removing these statues that for sure have some negative connotations towards civil rights and such because we need these to remind us what and how not to behave. I don't think we can count on school history books and the internet to teach what happened in the past.
The perception just needs to change, in many cases its not about applauding these people but rather looking at them with question and a dark mood, in some cases disgust.
Early history and early growth of countries was not pretty at all, it was dog eat dog in both politics and business and social welfare. I always giggle when I hear people say, "I wish I would have grown up in the 1700 or 1800s.." No you don't!
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We must never erase history, warts and all, but a statue isn't history, its a tribute.
As a southerner, I think Confederate statues should come down. They were erected during the jim crow era as a way of reminding black people who was still in charge.

The confederacy was the worst thing that ever happened to the south. Keep it as important history, but get rid of the glorious statue tributes.

As far as erasing history goes, %50 of southerners were opposed to the civil war. Where is their statue? Where is there a statue for southerners who spoke out against the confederacy? Where are the statues for those who helped slaves escape?
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Nazi flags, swastikas and statues of Adolph are banned in Germany. Makes perfect sense to me. The history of that dismal era will still be remembered without any of those props.
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

What I don't think is right is removing these statues that for sure have some negative connotations towards civil rights and such because we need these to remind us what and how not to behave. I don't think we can count on school history books and the internet to teach what happened in the past.
The perception just needs to change, in many cases its not about applauding these people but rather looking at them with question and a dark mood, in some cases disgust.

Statues erected by Confederate sympathizers 50 to 100 years after the Civil War (and nearly all were erected between 1890 and 1950, with the majority between 1900-20), were put there not as some "reminder how not to behave"; on the contrary, they were erected as a mythical glorification of a South that really never actually existed as well as a warning to blacks and symbols of white supremacy.

The majority were erected when Jim Crow Laws were being enacted in every state across the South, when segregation was legitimized, and when the Ku Klux Klan had reached its zenith of power. They ennoble rebels against the United States, and make heroes of those who fought for the rights of slave-holders. 

You want history? Read a book.
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That's the point......I am sure you can ask young people about Jim Crow today and not many have an idea, and then later on none of them will know and risk it happening again.
We know about it.......for those with kids here ask them if they know about Jim Crow and the KKK, unless you explain it to them the knowledge will end.
Don't forget we will all die soon.

Remember history has a funny way of repeating itself.....
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Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.
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I'm okay with a statue commemorating what a stupid disaster the confederacy was, but that statue does not exist because some want to erase history as it really was.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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And that's the problem with history remembered. It's always altered by bias.
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Should all future statues and monuments, erected to commemorate characters from the past, be restricted to sports legends and artists (including musicians) and exclude anyone known for their political, military or religious work and influence? Bearing in mind that one persons hero, is another's villain.

They shouldn't. I call things that happen now "tolerant vandalism".
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.
So all correct/accurate history only lies in books?? Confused And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve.
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.
So all correct/accurate history only lies in books?? Confused And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve.

Have you ever talked to a WWII veteran? The few who are still breathing? Try it and see what kind of history lesson you get from them. In 1946, they were the "horse's mouth". Now? I won't even say it. And most history is not revisionist. There is some of it but historians take great pains to get their facts straight and remain apolitical. Once it's in a book, it's there for posterity.

Edited by SteveG - June 12 2020 at 12:18
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.
So all correct/accurate history only lies in books?? Confused And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve.

So you're willing to accept a statue erected solely for white supremacy by white supremacists (if we are being accurate), but you're worried about history books being inaccurate? That is hilarious.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.
So all correct/accurate history only lies in books?? Confused And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve.

Have you ever talked to a WWII veteran? The few who are still breathing? Try it and see what kind of history lesson you get from them. In 1946, they were the "horse's mouth". Now? I won't even say it. And most history is not revisionist. There is some of it but historians take great pains to get their facts straight and remain apolitical. Once it's in a book, it's there for posterity.

One of those exchanges where you both make very valid points. What I would say, as an avid reader, especially of history, is that history books range from the absolutely source driven material to the books written with an inherent bias from the perspective of the historians personal viewpoint, I.e. such and such was wrong, or so and so made a mistake.

History is very rarely completely unsullied by this, and, don’t forget, much of history is written by the winning side.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

What I don't think is right is removing these statues that for sure have some negative connotations towards civil rights and such because we need these to remind us what and how not to behave. I don't think we can count on school history books and the internet to teach what happened in the past.
The perception just needs to change, in many cases its not about applauding these people but rather looking at them with question and a dark mood, in some cases disgust.

Statues erected by Confederate sympathizers 50 to 100 years after the Civil War (and nearly all were erected between 1890 and 1950, with the majority between 1900-20), were put there not as some "reminder how not to behave"; on the contrary, they were erected as a mythical glorification of a South that really never actually existed as well as a warning to blacks and symbols of white supremacy.

The majority were erected when Jim Crow Laws were being enacted in every state across the South, when segregation was legitimized, and when the Ku Klux Klan had reached its zenith of power. They ennoble rebels against the United States, and make heroes of those who fought for the rights of slave-holders. 

You want history? Read a book.

great great post and yes... you nailed it.. until you tripped right before you stepped on the plate.

fighting for the rights of slave owners...  no..  they did not. No more than we fought for Big Oil Companies in Kuwait and Iraq.  No more than the north fought to free the slaves. Slavery is not why either side fought.   

Remember the Civil War nearly happened 30 years before it did and slavery had nothing to do with it.. that war was destined to happen regardless of whether it was slavery or tariffs as north and south grew so far apart in so many ways.. slavery was just one of the ways.

but nice recovery from the trip...  history has many interpretations..  thus not just a book.. many are needed to fully understand history.
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^ You might want to read the speech that the man second in command to Lee gave before the civil war. It was very much centered on the role of the black man in the south.
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no doubt.. as might know.. I spent years researching William Barksdale when writing my book on him. One of the greatest fighting Generals this country ever produced.. and also dyed in the wool racist. Of course there were elements for which slavery was prime... but most fell in Lee's camp. A heartfelt duty to their states more than a defense of slavery. Just as there were those in the north that wanted that war to end slavery but the abolitionists  were a minority as much as the Fire Breathers were..

The war wa snot about slavery.. Lincoln could nothing to end the practice.. it was not immediately threatened. As I alluded to our inevitable Civil War nearly happened about tariffs decades earlier. Both were symptoms for what really drove north and south to war.  The breakdown in compromise over an issue this country had to settle that had smoldered since independence from England. For most included damn everyone who actually fought killed and gave the ultimate sacrifice.. to say it was about slavery completely misses the point why hundreds and hundreds of thousand fought and died. It was about preserving the union for those in the north..  While in the south is was about what all held more dear than that union.. their states..and states rights to determine the way they lived.. not Washington DC. That was what that war about was about and more to Greg's point.. what those soldiers fought for. They either fought for preserving the union.. or their rights of their states.. and the duty, loyalty each felt towards it.




Edited by micky - June 12 2020 at 16:30
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