Some roots of prog rock

I shall not explain why, but I caught part of Radio 2 "Top Of The Pops" show on Saturday afternoon playing some of the UK hits of the first week of July 1968. Amongst the feature tracks was Richard Harris's major hit "MacArthur Park" - a tune that should only be heard once a decade IMHO.  That sparked off some thoughts:

1. This was a Jim Webb magnus opus, written and arranged 1966 or '67 (?) for voice and orchestra. It is a tune that goes through a number of significant musical changes in its 7 minutes plus length.

2. it was the longest hit single to that date? And during this period of the mid 60's, there was some quite  competition to produce the longest single for the charts. Wasn't the Animals' "House of the rising sun", the first serious contender to go beyond the 3 and half minute mark?

3. There was public's awareness and acceptance of longer pop pieces, shown by the numbers of sales.

4. There was a  need to make the music sound interesting for an extended period of time, meaning going beyond the simple verse/chorus structure, into a more symphonic form of composition/arrangement. i.e. pop music becoming more complex and being bought.

While not putting MacArthur Park up as an early prog recording, it has to be a precursor, because of its popularity and amount of radio plays, it would have clearly shown  budding prog musicians what could be done.

I know an album (mentioned elsewhere on this site), by the soul group Fifth Dimension, Magic Garden, (a record of mostly Jim Webb compositions) which was very popular at this time. It had one side consisting of a number of tunes seemlessly arranged together, which worked very well to sit and listen or to party to.

Beyond Jim Webb, some other (perphiral) recordings which can be considered here, as those that sold very well and would have been heard by many people.

The theatrical recording of Hair.

Rare Earth's Get Ready - the full length version was major hit in the Spanish discos (filled with British tourists) as was Creedence's Clearwater Revival's Heard It Through the  Grapevine - although these tracks only just predate both the first Renaissance and King Crimson albums in '68. This version of Get Ready sounds very corny nowadays, but in sustaining its length the band had to provide changes, beit mostly relying on each band member to come up with a 5 minute solo. Contrary and what still surprises me because of its full length listenability now, is CCR's 11 minute version of Grapevine, which is music arrangement made simple (cf. a Yes tune of comparable length, or any others bands').

I remember Richard Harris's "McArthur Park" even tho I was pretty young, but basically cause I couldn't believe Donna slaughtered it in the late 70s.. 

Another song which I listen to often again these days, but was one of the first songs I remember getting a lot of airplay on a shorter version.. and the album having the longer version.. was Grand Funk's "Closer to Home".  When I listen to it now, and the section with the orchestra and the bird sounds... its too bad Grank Funk didn't continue along this line of music.

'Excerpt from a teenage opera' (Keith West?) was another long pop song from the late sixties featuring a number of tempo changes.Unlike McArthur Park it has a coherent story though!

All:

In answer to some of the historical queries, "House of the Rising Sun" (4 minutes plus) was not the first single to go beyond 3 minutes.  Indeed, on that same album (1964) were "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" (5 minutes plus) and "We Gotta Get Outta This Place" - which ran over 7 minutes long; both of them were played regularly on the radio.  MacArthur Park (1969) was just over 7 minutes long.

"Closer to Home" (1970) was not Grand Funk's longest song (7 minutes), nor even its longest song up to that time.  On their first album (1969), they had three songs that ran longer than six minutes, and a song called "T.W.U.C." which ran over 8 minutes.

Also, don't forget that "Hey Jude" (7 minutes) also predates MacArthur Park.

As for the first song that broke the 3-minute mark, why don't we let this be a "contest" of sorts: who can come up with the answer first?  Feel free to use the Net; it probably won't help very much.

Peace.

The psychedelic movement was well under way by 1966, and by 1968 there were quite a few outsiders and wannabes trying to appropriate some of its characteristics (including the Beatles, but they quickly earned the average hippie's respect). Rubber Soul and Revolver firmly established the band's focus on albums rather than singles (threefates' point) as well as an interest in incorporating experimental arrangements and sounds into the songs. In 1968, their single "Hey Jude" passed the seven minute mark- and by this time, The Grateful Dead were regularly performing songs that lasted 20 minutes to an hour. "Light My Fire" was getting frequent airplay (even in non-truncated single form) in 1967.

Not mention by 1968 we'd already had "Freak Out", "Days of Future Passed", "Soft Machine", The Nice's first two albums, etc.

Nope, we'd definitely have to look deeper and farther back than "MacArthur Park" for the trends that inspired progressive rock. It was indeed a very long song though.

I think Love's DA CAPO album contains the earliest side-long song - "Revelation" - someone correct me if I'm wrong? That was 1967.

When I studied this topic many years ago, I came to the conclusion that prog arose from psychedelia, which in turn arose from the meeting of folk and rock, specifically Bob Dylan's proteges the Byrds, and the track "8 Miles High". Dylan's own "Highway 61 Revisited" is in many ways progressive.

As for "MacArthur Park", which I believe follows "8 Miles High", it's a good contender, Dick Heath, as 8MH is unquestionably psychedelia rather than prog. But CCR? I will dig out my old albums, as I can only listen to CCR very infrequently, but I've only ever thought of them as rock'n'roll - I thought they sounded a bit dated, even for the 1960s. Just my recollection, of course, and I'm sure a revisit will prove me wrong in the light of your assertions.

threefates - I really like Donna Summer's disco version of MacArthur Park - but then I thought DS was Queen of disco and could do no wrong after I heard the stunning Georgio Moroder working of "I Feel Love". What a record! However, I own up to having also liked Amii Stewart's covers of "Knock on Wood" and "Light My Fire". My only excuse is that I was young...

Ye-es, but the title of this thread is "Roots of prog rock", which really leaves the debate wide open. I'm amazed no-one has mentioned Miles Davis or any of the other Jazz experimentalists yet, or even c20 composers who were equally influential, including Andrew Lloyd Webber, George Gershwin, Aaron Copland, Karlheiz Stockhausen, John Cage and Edgar Varese.

Interestingly, Excerpts from a Teenage Opera was released the same year (1968) as "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat" - admittedly a flop, initially, until "Jesus Christ Superstar" eventually rocketed Lloyd Webber to fame & fortune. The former was a kind of mini rock-operetta, and I can think of no earlier examples of this type of genre, unless you include ALW's first outing "The Likes of Us", which never saw the light of day.

JCS is really the first rock opera, as it contains recitative and aria structures, rather than being merely a themed collection of songs. Townsend can lay some claim to having invented the form, though, with his earlier 9-minute suite "A Quick One While He's Away", from "A Quick One (Happy Jack)" 1966. These suites and "Rock Opera"s certainly highlight the trend towards concepts - and mark milestones of sorts.

I think you also mentioned the Pretty Things "S. F. Sorrow" in a previous thread. That's the earliest concept album I could track down.

Dick Heath wrote: Hasn't serious music always progressed from each earlier generation? This is close  to me since I  put together a disc of samples last night for my wife, showing this change over the last millenium (this is for her course teaching foreigners English). I've gone 12th Century plainchant, to Monteverdi's  Vespers, to Vivaldi 4 Seasons, to Bach's French Suite, to Mozart Symph  21, to Beethoven 5th Piano, to Tchaikovsky's Violin, to Eric Satie's Gymnopedie 2: very distinct progression in 700 years!!!!!!!!! You missed out the huge quantity of "Troubadour" music from the great lutenists, and the amazing Elizabethan madrigals. That would fill in some gaps between Gregorian chant and Monterverdi. I would suggest comparing the two strands; secular and ecclesiastic, as there are marked differences - and it would make tracking the development of popular music at least a bit more interesting!

Gillan played Jesus on the original LP, Jeffrey Fenholt played him in the Broadway play that opened circa 1971, and Ted Neeley played the suspiciously model-looking version in the feature film. Pity Neeley didn't have Gillan's voice, or Gillan Neeley's looks! I think Paul Nicholas murdered the role later in the 1970s.

just wanted to make sure we all knew that the Mothers' concept album "Freak Out" was released in '66- I think that beats even "S.F. Sorrow" by a year.