Abortion: Legal or Illegal

Still, do you want to be the one at the end of the day to make that call? Really? Cuz I don't.Heck, some old people are demented beyond all cognition, maybe they don't count as human either. Soylent Green is fetuses.

Saperlipopette! wrote: I did that among other things, but so what? First I actually thought you needed stats for future overpopulation. I don't know you or your use of rhetorical questions. I've encountered people asking questions like that who meant it. Anyway I'm just telling HP that this "ridiculous claim" wasn't mine.

The way you phrased it made me seem like I ask stupid questions. Just pointing that out.

Chillax bro

progkidjoel wrote: Yes, because there is no difference in the biological relationships between an unborn child and a mother or conjoined twins, har har har. And telling people not to do things doesn't work - plenty of people stll murder, rape and steal every day, hour, every minute. The suggestion that an abortion is a bailout is disgusting and completely taken out of context. What about someone who is raped, who uses defective contraception? There are plenty of pregnancies caused by those two every year, are they at fault and simply trying to avoid responsibility that they either had forced onto them or tried to avoid? *edited for derpy grammar

The concept is the same; two people whose bodies are connected in some way. What gives one the rights over their bodies over the other? It doesn't seem just.


And well, there are consequences for people that do things that they shouldn't do. The consequence of unprotected sex is a baby. Too many kids and young adults these days (and I am a young adult myself) think that they don't have to answer for anything. Nobody knows how to own up to their actions and take responsibility for themselves anymore. Back in the day if you screwed up and had a kid, you grew up, sucked it up, got a job, and took care of it and gave it the best life you could. Now people would rather vacuum it out of their vagina.

Out of the MILLIONS of abortions performed every year, what percentage of them are due to rape? I'm guessing not a very high percentage. Rape is an extreme case. For the vast majority of abortion cases it's a situation where the mother and father just don't want to be mothers and fathers.
It IS a bailout; people can have crazy, wild sex and if anything happens, they just get rid of it and pretend like it wasn't there to begin with. Just like banks can have crazy, wild loans and if anything happens, they just get the money to pay it off handed to them and pretend like the debt wasn't there to begin with.
It's an enabler.

Slartibartfast wrote: In the end outlawing abortion doesn't put an end to the practice.  It just criminalizes it and makes it dangerous.

It's dangerous for house burglars to break into houses, we should legalize that so that they don't risk being shot by the home owners. This is an illogical "supporting" point for abortion because it doesn't logically apply in ANY other situation. You don't legalize something just because it's dangerous to break the law.

"It's dangerous to rape women on the street at night because you might get caught!" "Oh, really? Well we can't have that! They're going to rape women either way so we may as well make it safe for them when they do it. Legalize rape now!"
That makes no sense whatsoever.

The Dark Elf wrote: The earth has 7 billion people. By 2025 there will be 10 billion, most of them starving and unwanted. Keep abortion legal, or start handing out saltpeter and condoms.

Population control? Sounds like a pretty communist-type of idea. You might consider moving to China where they like that sort of thing. This argument could be applied to legalizing murder just as easily as it can be applied to abortion. We could kill all people with IQ's under 85, or all people with diseases or something, and help the population numbers across the world, but is that a good idea? Not really.

Obviously the Earth's population is a serious issue. We have too many people and I'm tired of seeing beautiful land destroyed and made into shopping centers, but murder isn't the answer. Lets at least bomb some other countries or something instead!! (Being facetious here... mostly)

Deathrabbit wrote: Hey, I think Hawking just said backwards time travel is theoretically possible. So it counts :P

Doc Brown and Marty McFly did it several times, so it's got to be real.

Eärendil wrote: I believe that abortion destroys a human life along with all the potential advancements it will bring to its family and its society. That being said, I cannot say if it should be legal or illegal.  Abortion also destroys all the harm the person would bring to society.  On one hand, I think it is murder, but on the other, it can be better for the fetus to die than to live in some circumstances. Being realistic, often the children that would be aborted but aren't end up in poverty and over-populated communities.  They often remain trapped in a cycle of poverty (generalizing here). There's the sense that if a mother wants to abort her baby, she is not deserving to be its mother at all. In cases of rape, I pity the mother but really don't feel qualified to presume I know what to do.  I will personally always discourage abortion, but perhaps it can be justified in some way.

John Stuart Mill reincarnate! 

Eärendil wrote: Epignosis wrote: Eärendil wrote: I believe that abortion destroys a human life along with all the potential advancements it will bring to its family and its society. That being said, I cannot say if it should be legal or illegal.  Abortion also destroys all the harm the person would bring to society.  On one hand, I think it is murder, but on the other, it can be better for the fetus to die than to live in some circumstances. Being realistic, often the children that would be aborted but aren't end up in poverty and over-populated communities.  They often remain trapped in a cycle of poverty (generalizing here). There's the sense that if a mother wants to abort her baby, she is not deserving to be its mother at all. In cases of rape, I pity the mother but really don't feel qualified to presume I know what to do.  I will personally always discourage abortion, but perhaps it can be justified in some way.   John Stuart Mill reincarnate!  Is that a good or a bad ?

Just describing your evident view on the subject- it seems almost wholly utilitarian.

It seems your position is more or less, "If the person turns out good for society, abortion would've been a bad idea.  If the person turns out evil for society, abortion would've been a good idea."


Edited by Epignosis - November 02 2011 at 19:39

Epignosis wrote: Eärendil wrote: Epignosis wrote: Eärendil wrote: I believe that abortion destroys a human life along with all the potential advancements it will bring to its family and its society. That being said, I cannot say if it should be legal or illegal.  Abortion also destroys all the harm the person would bring to society.  On one hand, I think it is murder, but on the other, it can be better for the fetus to die than to live in some circumstances. Being realistic, often the children that would be aborted but aren't end up in poverty and over-populated communities.  They often remain trapped in a cycle of poverty (generalizing here). There's the sense that if a mother wants to abort her baby, she is not deserving to be its mother at all. In cases of rape, I pity the mother but really don't feel qualified to presume I know what to do.  I will personally always discourage abortion, but perhaps it can be justified in some way.   John Stuart Mill reincarnate!  Is that a good or a bad ? Just describing your evident view on the subject- it seems almost wholly utilitarian. It seems your position is more or less, "If the person turns out good for society, abortion would've been a bad idea.  If the person turns out evil for society, abortion would've been a good idea."

Edited by Eärendil - November 02 2011 at 20:44

Henry Plainview wrote:   Equality 7-2521 wrote: You posted in an abortion thread more than once. I'm shocked. Well I don't know if sniping really counts...And you know I can't resist people complaining about things that a person or organization doesn't actually believe. And I edited the post Pat quoted because I decided that joke was in fact a bit tasteless.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :O :O ?

TheMasterMofo wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: Your (I was about to call you Zippy, but I restrained myself) two examples are universal morality, you will find practically no one out there that supports burglary or rape.  Someone violates someone else against their will.  In abortion the fetus hasn't developed will yet.  I dare say born babies haven't either, but you really have to draw the line somewhere. Well, why draw the line at birth? Why not have a 1-3 month trial period where babies can be disposed of if they don't work out? What's the difference between aborting a baby at 8 months and a baby born a month early at 8 months? I was born 5 weeks early, personally, and I'm fairly sure that I'm a cognizant human being. What is "will", anyway? There are lots of people out there that are completely unable to make their own decisions or choices; since they have no will would it be OK to kill all codependents, too? Edit: Another quote fail

Because you have to draw the line somewhere.  Actually pre-birth abortions of healthy babies don't happen. No reasonable woman is going to carry a healthy fetus to the baby stage of development and just decide to have an abortion on a whim.  No doctor would go along with it.  The whole "partial birth" abortion thing (the proper medical term is dilation extraction: For example, the IDX procedure may be used to remove a deceased fetus.) is just a way for the anti-abortion to take one step in making all abortions illegal by demagoging the issue.  The baby is already dead.  Why force a woman to carry a dead baby all the way to still-birth, just because you want to outlaw all abortions in any circumstance?  That is truly cruel and heartless.

If she's that far along with the pregnancy and has a change of heart about it she will most likely give it up for adoption.

What is will anyway?  Well, in the case of your examples of burglary or rape, someone who clearly has it is being violated.  And by the way you completely dodged my response with that reply.  You're just countering my point with straw-man questions.  There are spheres of secular and religious morality.  To a large extent they over lap.  Religious morality should not be legislated even though it often is.  Laws against buy alcohol on Sundays, for example, Judaism and some sects of Christianity don't hold Sunday as their sabbath.

Feel free to counter with my being too absolute, I don't like where you draw the line, I want to ban all abortions in any circumstance, etc.

^That is a discrepancy that definitely needs to be resolved one way or the other for sure.

Startibattfast wrote: Because you have to draw the line somewhere.  Actually pre-birth abortions of healthy babies don't happen. No reasonable woman is going to carry a healthy fetus to the baby stage of development and just decide to have an abortion on a whim.

It absolutely happens. It doesn't happen on a whim. There are a lot of factors that go into it. Social pressures can get to the woman.