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Dellinger 
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 Posted: October 09 2014 at 21:08 |
 richardh wrote:
Hendrix would have come with Mitch Michell who Emerson knew, Once Palmer joined it was set as a 3 piece.One of the great mysteries of prog is why Emerson and Howe have never worked together other than hanging out for a day in the late sixties. They had mutual respect and very equal talent. Howe would have replaced Davy O'List in The Nice but the timing didn't work for Howe at the time. One of the original working names for the band was Triton but thankfully that was binned  |
Yeah, it would have been interesting to see what might have been achieved if Emerson and Howe had joined forces. However, it would have come at the cost of what Howe achieved with Yes... and somehow I don't think I would have prefered the alternative outcome.
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richardh
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Posted: October 10 2014 at 01:11 |
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^Howe was (and still is) the soul of Yes for me while Emerson was better in a 3 piece. So yep I agree although in the 80's there might have been a window of opportunity perhaps.
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dr wu23
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Posted: October 10 2014 at 08:50 |
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I have never really liked the sound of Howe's guitar...that trebly higher tone. Great player nevertheless and he did fit in well with Yes for the most part, but I like that thicker (or treated sustain) Les Paul sound . I'm not sure his tone nor style would have complemented what ELP were doing.
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TODDLER
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Posted: October 10 2014 at 11:10 |
dr wu23 wrote:
I have never really liked the sound of Howe's guitar...that trebly higher tone. Great player nevertheless and he did fit in well with Yes for the most part, but I like that thicker (or treated sustain) Les Paul sound . I'm not sure his tone nor style would have complemented what ELP were doing. |
It's strange because he didn't sound like that on 'Yours Is No Disgrace". On "I've Seen All Good People" he did and on Relayer his treble was out of control
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Dellinger
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Posted: October 10 2014 at 21:22 |
richardh wrote:
^Howe was (and still is) the soul of Yes for me while Emerson was better in a 3 piece. So yep I agree although in the 80's there might have been a window of opportunity perhaps. |
Yeah, that window of oportunity might have been good, but they were not at their most creative peak at the time, though (GTR, and Asia itself, were rather disapointing on a prog point of view). Perhaps after Lake played with Asia for a bit it would have been a good moment to make the connection, and perhaps EL Powell could have ended up having Howe as well.
However, I think the better oportunity would have been if Hendrix had not passed away and he had joined forces with ELP just after the bands creativity collapsed.
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richardh
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Posted: October 11 2014 at 02:03 |
Dellinger wrote:
richardh wrote:
^Howe was (and still is) the soul of Yes for me while Emerson was better in a 3 piece. So yep I agree although in the 80's there might have been a window of opportunity perhaps. |
Yeah, that window of oportunity might have been good, but they were not at their most creative peak at the time, though (GTR, and Asia itself, were rather disapointing on a prog point of view). Perhaps after Lake played with Asia for a bit it would have been a good moment to make the connection, and perhaps EL Powell could have ended up having Howe as well.
However, I think the better oportunity would have been if Hendrix had not passed away and he had joined forces with ELP just after the bands creativity collapsed. |
There would have been a long queue of artists wanting to work with Hendrix. ELP + Henrdix performing The Barbarian .. now that would have happened I have no doubt. If ever a track was made for Hendrix to play on that was it!
Edited by richardh - October 11 2014 at 02:03
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Rick Robson
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Posted: October 11 2014 at 05:10 |
I've been loving the drums performance of Carl Palmer in Knife Edge, groundbreaking! I've been amazed with their powerful music indeed, their performance strenght in The Barbarian too is a must, and I got wondering how it would have gotten with the inclusion of Hendrix playing as Richardh suggested, I think it would have gotten indeed a powerful prog rock piece! But of course having that such a strong piano section untouched 
Edited by Rick Robson - October 12 2014 at 07:44
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Dellinger
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Posted: October 11 2014 at 21:45 |
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I guess we could get an idea of how ELP would have sounded with guitars with the work Emerson had done with Mark Bonilla... however, his guitar isn't exactly what Hendrix would have done with Emerson (I expect Hendrix would have gone to more interesting places, specially live).
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Jzrk
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Posted: October 11 2014 at 23:04 |
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I think ELP combined so many elements and did them well.You have the classical influences,The pop ballads, hard rock power trio via Hammond organ,and the overall progressive rock sound all done great.Also as mentioned here Greg Lakes vocals which are stunning and for the music somehow so perfectly.
Powerful,beautiful and majestic all wrapped up in a move package is ELP.
You either love em or hate em it seems.
I love em!
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richardh
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Posted: October 12 2014 at 02:32 |
Dellinger wrote:
I guess we could get an idea of how ELP would have sounded with guitars with the work Emerson had done with Mark Bonilla... however, his guitar isn't exactly what Hendrix would have done with Emerson (I expect Hendrix would have gone to more interesting places, specially live). |
Bonilla is naturally reverential towards Emerson. Hendrix would have been his 'own man' and how long he and Emerson would have got along is hard to say. 
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Rick Robson
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Posted: October 12 2014 at 07:40 |
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In my opinion some tunes like f.e. Fanfare For The Common Man would not fit very well to hendrix playing style, even though its version with guitars (Fanfare For The Common Man - Pt.2 from The Keith Emerson Band: Three Fates Project) is awesome, one of the best versions of Fanfare I've listened to till now.
Edited by Rick Robson - October 12 2014 at 07:41
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Vic333
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Posted: October 12 2014 at 11:35 |
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Didn't E and L get together with another P in the 80's for an Emerson, Lake & Powell album? Or, is that stricken from the records? I did a search, and it looks like it's out of print.
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richardh
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Posted: October 12 2014 at 16:15 |
Vic333 wrote:
Didn't E and L get together with another P in the 80's for an Emerson, Lake & Powell album? Or, is that stricken from the records? I did a search, and it looks like it's out of print. |
Yes and No and there are at least 35 available copies on Amazon ,some very cheap.
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geekfreak
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Posted: October 15 2014 at 10:06 |
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yes its hmm well listenable album, I`ve been listening to the first three albums now to me that's amazing listening too!!.
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Rick Robson
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Posted: November 11 2014 at 20:54 |
micky wrote:
have posted this before (with permission ) and this is a good place to post it again. One of the more insightful things I've seen written about ELP. From John McFerrin's excellent review site...
Emerson Lake And Palmer
LOAD YOUR BROWSER. I AM PRETENTIOUS.
Emerson, Lake and Palmer are quite possibly the world's most reviled band. Now, they were extremely popular in the early 70's among those who 'took themselves seriously' (especially
college students), and even today they maintain a sizable cult
following, so it would be unfair to say that absolutely nobody likes
them. Regardless, however, this is a perfectly legitimate statement on
the general level. Fans of punk have always detested them as they would
any prog band, but this extended far beyond normal levels of loathing;
as an example, one of the staples of late 70's Sex Pistols shows was to
burn life-size statues of Keith Emerson in effigy.
Now, this normally wouldn't be such a bad thing, since after all hatred
of art-rock and prog-rock was one of the most important principles upon
which the punk movement was founded. No, what distinguished ELP was the
amount of venom spewed upon them by other
"high-brow" artists and their various followers. Fans of classical
music absolutely despised them for "butchering" various well-known
pieces in their attempts to interpret these standards in a rock idiom.
There is a nugget of truth to this, of course (Pictures at an Exhibition
is often quite a stretch from the original Mussorgsky piece, to put it
mildly), but ... I dunno. I'm sure that a good number of the band's
fans became fans of classical music due to their efforts, so that
should be worth something. Or maybe the older generation was just mad
about all these young whippersnappers infiltrating
their societal niche .... (AUTHOR'S
NOTE): While I still agree with the core content of what I write in the
next few paragraphs, it's expressed far more clumsily than I'd have
preferred, and in a perfect world I would rewrite this section
completely. Unfortunately, there are a few reader comments that
directly reference it, and I don't want to make them anachronistic, so
it's staying. Even if I'd rather it didn't. Just remember that I wrote
this when I was 19, and that I'm way older than that now.
The greatest insult of all, of course, is that even among some prog
lovers, they're hated like crazy! Now, prog is often considered a
relatively open-ended term, and many are eager to classify any band
with the least bit of 'artsy' leanings as one (on the other hand, the
definition held by many often excludes those should be considered prog;
if Can isn't at least somewhat of a prog band, then I don't know
anything about anything). Hence, many groups are GROSSLY misclassified
in this genre. Styx, Journey, Kansas ... all are talentless (well, ok,
they're talented at their instruments, so if you want, let's say tasteless instead) buffoons with large egos but little else, and let's face it, you really need compositional talent
to be a decent prog group (Kansas and Styx are basically prog groups,
but they're so insignificant in the grand scheme of things that they
can and should be ignored). The Moody Blues and Procol Harum often get
the tag, but that's only because of the slight symphonic elements in
their sound (from mellotron in the former, organs in the latter); both
are most definitely rooted in pop, and it should definitely be noted
that the former's concepts are never as overwhelmingly bizarre as one
would expect from a true prog band (not to mention that the chord
progressions are never in the least bit intimidating). Jethro Tull ...
well, Jethro Tull was a prog band for the bulk of the 70's,
sure, but with a couple of MAJOR exceptions, their progressive stuff
was extremely second-rate; I vastly prefer to think of Tull in terms of
Teacher and the like as opposed to garbage like Minstrel in the Gallery.
And finally, it is highly tempting to refer to Pink Floyd as
progressive, but ... avant-garde yes. Artsy, yes. "Pretentious," yes.
But the lyrics are, again, always either psychedelic, folk, pop, or
hyper-angsty. They weren't really prog outside of Meddle and Animals,
if you ask me. Anyway, the whole point of this is that among English
speaking groups (I'm not even going to try and fake any knowledge about
German prog or anything like that), there are really five widely
acknowledged "classic" prog groups (and yes, I'm aware of the existence
of Gentle Giant and Van Der Graff (Generator), but I'm speaking of widely acknowledged
groups, groups that a casual rock fan who may know vaguely enough about
prog to have made some level of judgement will recognize): Yes, ELP,
Rush (though that's debatable), Genesis (the Gabriel-era stuff plus Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering,
that is), and first-period King Crimson (later incarnations of King
Crimson were most certainly prog, but not in the "classic" definition
of the word, nor did they strive to be after the initial incarnation).
And almost universally, ELP is considered the worst of all of these.
Now, for many, a sufficient explanation of this is
simply, "ELP sucks!". Needless to say, I think that is a grave mistake
(myself, I would rate them third on the list, behind Yes and Genesis -
note, however, that I now consider King Crimson's whole career on par
with those bands, even if the initial incarnation only has two albums
worth caring about), but I think I can make a good estimation on the real
reasons people despise this band. The first, and the most obvious, was
the group's relatively heavy emphasis on classical music in their
sound. Yes, progressive rock almost always has at least a tinge of some
classical elements, but ELP's music had the greatest concentration of
it in their music, BY FAR. Now, it's not as if that was the only
type of music they did, not at all, but among their discography you can
find covers of Copeland, Holst, Bartok, and they even did a full album
rendition of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. Their self-penned material would also sometimes have a
pure 'orchestral' feel as well, and they even managed to create a new and totally bizarre genre, the 'rock-symphony.'
The band's classical leanings, however, are not the
only significant difference between ELP and the others on the list. A
key thing to note about ELP is that, besides King Crimson, none of the
others on the list were prog-groups from the get-go. Yes started as a
jazzy, psychedelic rock band, and it wasn't until their third LP that
they really became Yes as we know them. Rush began as a hard-rock
garage band, modeling themselves after Led Zeppelin and Cream. And
Genesis, well, Genesis started as a
bunch of teenagers trying to sell pop songs to the public and not
succeeding one iota (which is a shame, seeing as there are tons of
great melodies on their debut). ELP, however, was "pretentious" and
progressive from the very beginning, which makes sense. Both Keith
Emerson (The Nice) and Greg Lake (King Crimson) were former key members
of groups that had pretty much created the genre, and as such one could
only expect them to continue what they seemed to have a knack for. Add
in Carl Palmer's technically perfect drumming, and you have a group
created for pretentiousness and lots of it.
There is one more aspect that sets ELP apart from the
other groups, and that deals with the center of the band's sound. Rush
focused on the blistering chops of their guitar and bass players. Yes,
regardless of Wakeman's presence, rotated around their amazing bassist,
Chris Squire. Genesis tried to emphasize Peter Gabriel's vocals and his
bizarre fantasies over the chops of the group, which were definitely
fine overall but hardly in the super-elite level of the rock world. In the Court of the Crimson King,
regardless of all of the mellotrons, was extremely guitar heavy, not to
mention the saxophones and other reed instruments. ELP, however, did
not revolve around a guitar or bass player like the others. ELP was always
centered on the keyboards of Keith Emerson. Now, it's not that he was a
bad player, FAR from it. It's just that, well, he could be a bit too
showoffy. Plus the fact that he often employed some extremely bizarre
and occasionally annoying synth tones that few others would even touch.
And since most people would rather hear guitar w**king than synth
w**king, it's only natural that there would be a huge turn-away from
this group.
I think I have made it sufficiently clear that ELP is
not for everyone. The thing is, for the longest time I refused to give
them even the
slightest chance, and that's a shame, because they're really quite
good! For starters, each of them was a highly talented and extremely
professional musician, and even haters of the band have to give them
that. Keith Emerson, let's face it, was almost indisputably the
greatest keyboardist on earth, hands down (I think he was officially
given the title by some renowned magazine twenty five times in a period
of thirty years). Hence, he was often able to make large parts of the
group's compositions come alive by the sheer force of his talent alone,
whereas in the hands of any lesser player it might have been deadly
boring. Meanwhile, just as important for the group was
vocalist/guitarist/bassist Greg Lake. With the exception of Justin
Hayward and a few others, almost nobody was a better rock singer than
him in the 70's. He was always able to add incredible power and
powerful emotional content to the highly abstract and bizarre lyrics
that always accompanied the group's music. And one should certainly not
minimize his guitar and bass playing, not at all. And finally, there
was drummer Carl Palmer, as fine a prog drummer as one could find in
the world; with an impeccably fluid and solid playing technique, his
playing abilities in the prog universe were surpassed only by Bill
Bruford
himself.
The fact remains, however, that impeccable instrumental
technique is not the only requirement for being a good and distinctive
progressive rock band. After all, if all I cared about was great
playing abilities, I would be sitting here reviewing various jazz
recordings rather than talking about rock and its various forms. You
see, it's a common misconception that the band was primarily a medium
for the grandiose ambitions of Emerson. Now, don't get me wrong, the
man could write an excellent and
supremely catchy synth jam (Karn Evil 9.1 in particular), but in no way
was Keith the creative epicenter of the band's music (at least, most of
the time, when the band was at its best). No, that honor fell to Lake,
who was an extremely
talented pop song and ballad writer. I mean, grandiose and overblown as
Tarkus is, it's really just three short, very catchy Lake numbers whose
various musical themes are expanded upon with the help of Keith's
synths and are reprised in just the right
amounts. And that's hardly the only example, as great songs like Lucky
Man or Still, You Turn Me On will show.
In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that the
music of ELP, in general, is nowhere near as intimidating as it is
often made out to be. If you're looking for solid pop and rock
embellished with a bit of jazz and a healthy amount of classical and
symphonic aspirations, you shouldn't be afraid to give them a try. I
used to rate them as a two-star band, but surprisingly found that my
enjoyment of the band has only increased over time (in particular, the
debut REALLY grew on me, as you'll see in a bit), so a three-star
rating (out of five) seems appropriate enough. Now go ahead and flame
me for liking them as much as, say, Led Zeppelin.
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It is always nice to read intelligent comments about the fantastic ELP!
Edited by Rick Robson - November 11 2014 at 20:55
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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richardh
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 00:53 |
^ an interesting read but a bit rambling (like ELP ho ho) and some points I would take issue with. The hatred of ELP really came from that orchestral tour in 1977 that collapsed after 4 gigs losing them tons of money, an event that was heavily publicized in the music press here so that ELP effectively became the most high profile band to hate as far the punk bands were concerned. I didn't know that The Sex Pistols burnt effigies of Keith Emerson on stage, that's a fun fact as is Rotten 'dong lunch' with Emerson not that many years ago. Times change eh?
Also in terms of ability there was no better English drummer than Palmer and that includes Bruford. In terms of technique only Jon Hiseman (of Colosseum) was on a par with Palmer but not better. Of course 'good taste' dictates that we should all prefer Bruford as he was less 'showy'.
I also don't agree with bashing Kansas as a way of bigging up ELP. Kansas are a very fine band and have achieved true longevity by releasing a very solid album Somewhere To Elsehwere a few years after ELP produced the risible rubbish of In The Hot Seat.
Other than that its okay |
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Cactus Choir
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 02:50 |
richardh wrote:
The hatred of ELP really came from that orchestral tour in 1977 that collapsed after 4 gigs losing them tons of money, an event that was heavily publicized in the music press here so that ELP effectively became the most high profile band to hate as far the punk bands were concerned.
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Yes ELP just timed it really badly, a bit like Godley & Creme releasing a triple concept album in the summer of Punk! It was an act of financial hubris and pretty much doomed to failure from the outset as they would have had to sell out every venue just to break even. Carl Palmer said shortly after ELP split that they were seen as the ultimate rock capitalists, but virtually all the money they had was ploughed into the orchestra tour and setting up the Manticore label.
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"And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!"
"He's up the pub"
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richardh
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Posted: November 12 2014 at 13:48 |
I suppose their customized Juggenauts each with a giant E , L and a P that could only be seen from the sky may not have played too well with the punks either
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Cactus Choir
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 03:01 |
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They didn't help themselves that's for sure, viz. Carl Palmer's complaints about the inadequate pillows in his hotel room in the 1973 documentary, supposedly the inspiration Nigel Tufnel's "sandwich" rant in Spinal Tap. I'm sure I read that the E L & P trucks were empty and it was just done for the film.
Edited by Cactus Choir - November 13 2014 at 03:06
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"And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!"
"He's up the pub"
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chopper
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Posted: November 13 2014 at 07:05 |
Cactus Choir wrote:
They didn't help themselves that's for sure, viz. Carl Palmer's complaints about the inadequate pillows in his hotel room in the 1973 documentary, supposedly the inspiration Nigel Tufnel's "sandwich" rant in Spinal Tap. |
Well, he wouldn't have been able to pull that bell with his teeth if he'd woken up with a stiff neck due to an uncomfortable pillow would he? Did he phone reception and ask for an extra pillow to be sent up?
Edited by chopper - November 13 2014 at 07:05
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ELP Appreciation thread !!!!