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Do the Beatles get too much credit.. |
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AllP0werToSlaves 
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 Posted: February 22 2011 at 12:39 |
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I could just as easily say YOU OVERESTIMATE the first movers. All of this seems to stem from the absolutist stand point that just because it's a proven fact that they came first, that somehow anchors any and all defensive claims against said band as instantly wrong. By this logic, McDonalds is the best fast food chain and their food is of unparalleled quality because they came before Wendy's or Burger King. What's more, even if 9 out of 10 people chose McDonalds and I chose a random local restaurant instead, what does that prove? Did the food those 9 people consumed taste better than my home cooked meal simply because 9 people chose it? Maybe, but it's all opinion anyway. How could one opinion be more valid than the other? McDonalds has more money to promote their product, but that doesn't instantly equate to the highest quality product available. Just because they were first and the biggest doesn't mean they are automatically the best. Your logic alone proves nothing; I was arguing that it's all subjective and arbitrary in the first place. GORGUTS were influenced by Slayer, and they are 1,000 times more creative to me. Who give a sh*t if Slayer came first? This is the problem with politics and music; everyone is so caught up in who did what first, we all argue over arbitrary details that ALL boil down to personal opinion. It's fine that the Beatles/Metallica and Slayer did it first. I'm saying they don't have a get out of jail free card because of their legacy. You are correct historically those bands were the ones, but that doesn't negate the fact that heavy promotion of an image geared toward mass consumption played a HUGE part in all of it. THE MEDIA gives you want they want you to buy, more accurately what they THINK you should want to buy right now; they hitch on to fads and themes that are hot sells. Look at any generation of music and it's no wonder why Metallica and Slayer were at the head of the pack; drunk middle America demands sub-par music. The publics perception of the music industry and how it actually works is severely flawed. The only FACT is that these huge bands had infinitely more funding from major labels than their bar-playing cousins. Why did they get more money? Because promoters and labels saw a market for the sound AT THAT POINT IN TIME and capitalized; it has very little to do with John Lennon playing his guitar with no shoes on sitting on the floor being poetic. You can literally swap out any band; the LABELS and PROMOTION are what sell, the music is actually almost completely unnecessary at that point. I'm not bashing the Beatles for their music, just offering my opinion on the publics perception that they are the be-all-end-all of pop music. At the end of the day YOUR opinion IS just as valid as MY opinion; it changes absolutely nothing about the music that has already been. All we can do is share view points on the matter respectfully. This goes back to perception of music and media being based on what you are told is the best, innovative, etc. Toting the Beatles around like they are empirically proven to be the best band ever while shooting down claims that oppose this stand shows ignorance to the power that marketing has on influencing mass opinion.
Edited by AllP0werToSlaves - February 22 2011 at 13:13 |
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 13:03 |
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My apologies in advance, that post was really meant for Chopper, and was not intended to directly address what you said earlier. However, there are some concerns I have based on points you made. For starters, although Frank Sinatra was indeed a pop-music performance artist, for most of his career he had a captivating and listenable voice that was the antithesis of peppy "Taxman"-esque Beatles vocalizations. You bring up Stevie Wonder; I love his music but I don't consider him a pop artist, more like a soul/R&B musician. Also, music critics regularly give the Beatles greater credit than they do for classical musicians. They may not intend to portray them that way, but in essence they imply that the Beatles are the greatest musicians that ever lived. When Rolling Stone lists its "Top 500 Greatest Albums Ever," there is no Stravinsky, Bartok, or Beethoven in those listings, even though composers record their works to this day. Instead, they have everything pop/rock from George Micheal to the Beatles listed in there. Critics of the modern era are baby boomer-centric, as I stated earlier, insofar as they ignore almost all great work that came before the Beatles. In this way, I think that the Beatles importance has become conflated beyond reason and logic in our society. |
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Logan
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 13:22 |
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I've heard the Beatles credited for inventing/ developing tape-loop techniques that were being used by musique concrete composers before them. It doesn\t surprise me due to pop status, but it does irk me that the Beatles get as much credit as they do for being inventive, and for being modern music geniuses, while the likes of Stockhausen and Xenakis more rarely seem to get mention. The Beatles were lucky to have people such as George Martin working with them.
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chopper
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 14:44 |
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Pet Sounds is great yes, but which album spurred Wilson on to make such a great album? And who was it by? |
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chopper
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 14:51 |
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Can you really listen to "House of the Rising Sun" and tell me that sounds any less dated than anything The Beatles were doing at the time? OK, tell us who deserves the accolade of "the greatest band who ever lived" (and I'm talking from the pop era onwards here). |
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 14:57 |
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[/QUOTE] Pet Sounds is great yes, but which album spurred Wilson on to make such a great album? And who was it by? [/QUOTE] "Rubber Soul" isn't half the album that "Pet Sounds" is, though. Its influence on "Pet Sounds" is undisputed, yet it does not achieve the same high quality, and as far as production is concerned, it remains dismal. A similar example: "Sargeant Pepper" was influenced by Frank Zappa's "Freak Out," yet that F.Z. debut suffers from substandard recording quality, and has aged poorly. As other posters have noted, the "first" is not necessarily the best. |
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chopper
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 14:58 |
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Yes good points. For all the nonsense in this thread, I will accept that George Martin had a huge part in the development of The Beatles from their pop origins. Without his classical knowledge (and the skill of the Abbey Road engineers) most of their ideas may not have been put into practice. |
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chopper
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 15:01 |
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Pet Sounds is great yes, but which album spurred Wilson on to make such a great album? And who was it by? [/QUOTE] "Rubber Soul" isn't half the album that "Pet Sounds" is, though. Its influence on "Pet Sounds" is undisputed, yet it does not achieve the same high quality, and as far as production is concerned, it remains dismal. A similar example: "Sargeant Pepper" was influenced by Frank Zappa's "Freak Out," yet that F.Z. debut suffers from substandard recording quality, and has aged poorly. As other posters have noted, the "first" is not necessarily the best. [/QUOTE] I agree, Pet Sounds is a better album than Rubber Soul but then I would argue that Revolver is better than Pet Sounds. I've never read anything that suggests Sgt Pepper was influenced by Zappa and Freak Out (and I have read most books on The Beatles worth reading) but you may well be right. |
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Padraic
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 15:04 |
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In there it claims Paul said Freak Out "influenced Sgt. Pepper considerably".
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 15:32 |
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The Beatles early hits are incredibly scruffy-sounding to my ears, while "House Of The Rising Sun" minimizes such blatant tape hiss. I do not think that there really is a greatest band, at least not yet. The problem is, loads of bands have careers filled with mixed efforts. For a group to be considered the "very best," they should have high quality work on every album. I would choose Genesis, except they changed lineups and sacrificed their creative potential in the 80's and 90's. Or Frank Zappa, although I don't like his 60's output. Rush is another favorite of mine, and is essentially my version of the Beatles in terms of how I respond to their music. However, some of their later work is substandard. For the 60's era, I think Bob Dylan is far more important in the long-term perspective than the Beatles. I am not a fan of his entire catalog, but his songs are some of the most historically influential works ever recorded. I also love Simon and Garfunkel/Stevie Wonder's work, so no objections if they are number one either. Muddy Waters, Louis Armstrong, and Woody Guthrie would also be deserving of such recognition. There are too many great artists and musicians for me to recommend, but if we were to hypothetically agree that "Pet Sounds" is the best (i.e. most influential) vocal pop album ever recorded from the 60's onwards, I would have no major objections with that selection. However, there is most likely an awesome band out there that I don't know about, so I'll have to reserve judgment until I hear more music. |
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 15:43 |
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"Rubber Soul" isn't half the album that "Pet Sounds" is, though. Its influence on "Pet Sounds" is undisputed, yet it does not achieve the same high quality, and as far as production is concerned, it remains dismal. A similar example: "Sargeant Pepper" was influenced by Frank Zappa's "Freak Out," yet that F.Z. debut suffers from substandard recording quality, and has aged poorly. As other posters have noted, the "first" is not necessarily the best. [/QUOTE] I agree, Pet Sounds is a better album than Rubber Soul but then I would argue that Revolver is better than Pet Sounds. I've never read anything that suggests Sgt Pepper was influenced by Zappa and Freak Out (and I have read most books on The Beatles worth reading) but you may well be right. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, I disagree, in that I think "Revolver" is the MOST overrated Beatles album. I strongly dislike "Taxman," and the other songs do not improve my perception of the album. It sounds like a victim of bad mastering, and there are very few truly memorable singles on it. "Yellow Submarine" is a children's song, and stands alongside "Octopus' Garden" as one of the Beatles' more derivative moments. |
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chopper
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 16:59 |
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I agree, Pet Sounds is a better album than Rubber Soul but then I would argue that Revolver is better than Pet Sounds. I've never read anything that suggests Sgt Pepper was influenced by Zappa and Freak Out (and I have read most books on The Beatles worth reading) but you may well be right. [/QUOTE] Unfortunately, I disagree, in that I think "Revolver" is the MOST overrated Beatles album. I strongly dislike "Taxman," and the other songs do not improve my perception of the album. It sounds like a victim of bad mastering, and there are very few truly memorable singles on it. "Yellow Submarine" is a children's song, and stands alongside "Octopus' Garden" as one of the Beatles' more derivative moments. [/QUOTE] We'll have to agree to differ there. My parting shot to this thread is that if you asked 100 prog musicians who was the greatest/most influential band of all time, I would bet a large amount of cash on the outcome. |
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 17:17 |
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Yeah, I definitely think that Battles are not given enough credit!
Oh wait... |
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rogerthat
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 19:55 |
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No, no, no, you are just going too fast. 
I didn't say consensus is all that matters. Your argument typically assumes that this is the only thing of merit about popular bands and that is the danger with such thinking. It automatically places unknown bands on a pedestal simply because there's no one to talk them up. That doesn't necessarily mean their music is better, we should judge the music on its own merits. Secondly, that example does not apply to Beatles or Metallica or Slayer because Mac is more of a business model and has not taken cuisine anywhere in particular.
And lack of promotion doesn't by itself glorify the underground. Let us also not forget that Metallica and Slayer emerged from the same underground. They just moved quicker and rose through the ranks while others were groping in the dark.
I didn't say that however that fact has to be given weightage. You cannot pretend it has no implication at all in the evaluation of a band. This business of coming first is not just some sprint dash and who manages to put the foot an inch ahead. It is a very important indicator of innovation.
That it is not and suppose it is, there is no reason why people like you should get so put off by 'overhyping' of Metallica or Slayer because it's all supposed to be arbitrary anyway. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to seek defence in completely subjectivity, why should you object to lots of people claiming Metallica as the best thrash metal band, it's just their opinion.
I am sorry but that IS one of the most important aspects of creativity especially in a defined genre like metal where, once the sound of a sub genre is settled, few bands make significant variations on it in their releases and adhere to the formula. Gorguts may be more suitable for your taste and that is your choice to make but claiming them to be 1000 times more creative is surely quite exaggerated considering how well entrenched the extreme metal sound was by then. Creativity does not happen or is not evaluated in a vacuum and going where other bands haven't is a very important aspect of it.
Who said they have to? But you are trying to write off the entire work of Metallica and Slayer purely on account of their recent releases which is not very thoughtful.
Bulls**t argument. They just got around to playing something everybody else wanted to play. If the music shaped by Metallica and Slayer is so sub par, why do Gorguts, who you extol so highly (a band that I also like, while we are on that), play extreme metal? Why can't they innovate and reject the format? Your argument, to repeat, also ignores that all these bands emerged from the same tiny clubs that the rest of the underground were struggling in. Many well known musicians in thrash metal used to attend Metallica's concerts even before Kill em All was released. You cannot use their current big band status to negate all of THAT. Yes, they have been making crappy albums for two decades now but that cannot be used to negate all their influence on metal as a falsehood (which is what Barking Weasel is doing w.r.t Beatles) or claim that influence or innovation are unimportant. If no artist was interested in innovation, and everybody played the same old, same old over and over for scores together, perhaps then you'd appreciate the importance of a Beatles or Metallica. It's a very comfortable stance to play what everyone else is playing and play it better but it takes a lot to challenge the status quo and influence other musicians to pursue a new direction. Regardless of how ridiculous Metallica may have become now, in the early 80s they had the guts to take metal to the next level and it's only a handful of metal bands about which you can say that. Particularly in a conservative genre like metal which doesn't change easily, every band that dared deserves rich praise.
But that was only AFTER they graduated out of the same bars. I would not deny that luck also plays a part in handing some bands the break that others don't get but it's delusional to claim luck is all there is to it. In the early 1980s, few bands were playing as tight thrash metal as Metallica or Slayer. Everybody then caught on to the bandwagon including those bar-playing cousins for whom your heart seems to bleed.
Once again, all this was AFTER they had paid their dues, after they had worked their way up and released commercially successful albums. Also, Beatles actually changed for the better in the second half of their successful career where I have seen so many prog and metal bands with more 'integrity' sell out once they smelled the scent of commercial success. Face it, you are reacting to the hype and not giving Beatles a judicious evaluation.
The discussion was about whether they get too much credit for their role in shaping rock music, NOT about whether they are the best band ever. I am sure Beatles-haters don't see much difference between the two topics but this discussion is restricted to their importance in rock music so right now you are only coming across as desperately wanting to deny their importance in music or pretend that importance itself is irrelevant. You can't also hyphenate best and innovative the way you are above, they are obviously very different. |
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rogerthat
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 20:02 |
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Firstly, just your opinion and secondly, it is still preposterous to compare a pop performance artist to a band making albums of their own music and making significant innovations in studio craft.
That way, even the Beatles are rock, bluegrass, blues and not pop. Pop is simply popular music and Stevie Wonder was a popular artist.
It is quite clear to most people that RS lists are compiled for pop/rock music and in any event does not include classical music in its scope. Now, if you want to react at everything or project anything as Beatles-promotion, go full speed ahead.
I don't think so, they just happen to be rock critics so they confine themselves to rock music. Someone like Miles Davis is obviously outside their scope. And I haven't seen critics deny the importance of Elvis or Chuck Berry or any of the other important 50s rockers, maybe in your illusory universe. |
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: February 22 2011 at 21:53 |
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I felt compelled to reply, because this is laughable.
I'm not talking about NY critics from Rolling Stone who get hard-ons about Kanye West and give his albums five stars, I referred to classically trained and highly respected music critics from that era, who would naturally disdain rock music as aberrant noise. They wrote about classical music, and one can't hold a job writing classical criticism with just a GED, a rudimentary knowledge of harmonica, and a close-and-play phonograph. I also quoted Leonard Bernstein, one of the 20th centuries most influential and innovative classical composers. Again, you are merely ranting and not presenting a cogent argument.
Context, my friend, context. Find some, use it. I would suggest that you listen to their remastered catalog. It has an amazing sonic quality. Or just listen to the album Love which is a phenomenal reworking of Beatles' tunes. As far as their early hits, I suppose you'd rather listen to Pat Boone or Herman's Hermits from the same era. Yeah, great sound and compositional properties. Also, the Rolling Stones spent the entire 60s chasing their tails in anxiety, trying desperately to one-up The Beatles. Their desperation was hilarious.
You really prefer the Beach Boys? I'm going to let you in a not-too-secret secret: Brian Wilson had to make Pet Shop Sounds because the Beatles had made his surfing music inconsequential and downright silly. If it weren't for the Beatles, Brian Wilson would have released Surfin' Safari, Part II. In any case, where are The Beach Boys now, playing retirement parties at senior citizen homes? Signing autographs at old car shows? Even after the release of Pet Shop Sounds, they had already become irrelevant. The Beatles buried them.
"I can't stand this, I can't stand that..." What is it with this irrational hatred? Did someone in a Beatles' wig steal your favorite doll, or were you slapped with a Beatles' album by your mum? The Beatles' melodies are dated? Then why have so many bands over the years strived to reach their level?
I'm sorry, but your your hyperbole is just short of hysterics, and your rebutals are, for the most part, fallacious. Hate the Beatles, if you wish, but refrain from further debate as you have utterly failed to prove your point. Aside from loudly proclaiming your personal dislikes, you've utterly missed the point of this thread. Edited by The Dark Elf - February 22 2011 at 21:55 |
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AllP0werToSlaves
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Posted: February 23 2011 at 01:06 |
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Roger hat; I won't argue with you because, just like almost always on discussion forums, two people do have accurate views but for whatever reason don't see eye to eye and that is fine. You raise excellent points and I apologize for coming off too strong with that last post there. I'm a huge Gorguts fan! Although I agree with you about extreme metal needing a start, Gorguts "Obscura" and "From Wisdom To Hate" is amongst the most un-orthodox metal around. There are others that I am aware of, but Gorguts did indeed innovate their sound after the early 90's. Of course they owe their start to Metallica and Slayer I wasn't trying to argue that; I think a lot of my point got obscured by my intense delivery which is unfortunate.
Not doubting the Beatles paid their dues, just like all great bands. I was just saying that bands whom the media believes will sell best are pushed more than others, which is just simple business. This in turn gets fed to the people who are heavily biased by media and advertising, that's all I was saying. Of course that has no effect on the music, just people's opinions on it to an extent. No hard feelings man!
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rogerthat
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Posted: February 23 2011 at 10:33 |
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Just want to clarify that I have heard Obscura and it is one of the most interesting metal releases from the 90s, however remains riff based extreme metal music pioneered by Metallica and Slayer, among others (Napalm Death, Death, Morbid Angel, Bathory, etc). It is doubtless an innovative release, I don't think I said it is not anyway. And no need to apologize, I wasn't offended, I just get pretty intense in debate myself.  |
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Guzzman
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Posted: February 23 2011 at 11:48 |
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Nope, absolutely not! (That's my answer to the original question, btw)
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"We've got to get in to get out"
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AllP0werToSlaves
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Posted: February 23 2011 at 13:14 |
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Tell me about it! Death is another all time favorite of mine, another kick starter that helped evolve thrash into death metal. Venom was pretty big in that too, as was Possessed! You are right though, the riff-based death metal owes it's start to Metallica and Slayer; I'm just happy those who came after built upon the foundation with such creativity!
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rogerthat wrote:
My dear, how ridiculous can you get? I don't believe anyone in their senses would actually consider Beatles a greater set of musicians than someone like Bach (though he might like their music, which is his preference and no more) and somebody who does is obviously a fanatic. One does not go attaching so much weight to such opinions that one pretends that Beatles were just a corporate pop act and disregards their profound influence on rock and pop music.