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Topic ClosedThe Theist - Agnostic - Atheist Poll
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Poll Question: What are you?
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 12:32
A) Tangerine Fans are toast, probably VdGG fans too.
 
B) The idea that an entity sitting apart from me that could "show up" and judge me is not likely. Even in basic Catechism, "Where is God? God is Everywhere."
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Even if the creator/God/bearded gaffer did appear and all doubt was removed about his/her/their existence: would that entity punish those creatures who either hitherto denied his existence or were incapable of recognising such e.g. wildlife, plants, conservative politicians, line dancers, Tangerine Dream fans etc

Would he acknowledge a moral compass with man-made poles ?

(As an atheist, I'm hoping to get a lenient sentence for good behaviour)
 
You just will suffer for thousand of years of music of Kiss or Jonas Bros. but then you will fine...
 
Seriously, nobody knows it for sure... I don't believe in a punishment of God... I believe eternity is undefiniable in a physical way.. so... your body will not suffer at all... I think... but that's not the point... at least for me is to believe more than what happen at the end... guess in the judgement day, it would be too late to change of mind...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 12:37
A) I would be toasted. Not only do I bear the sign of the pentagram, but I'm one of the worse... a traitor! I used to believe! I'm sure his wrath would fall harshly upon me...
 
... and upon most people around here. And even upon some of his fans. After all, if, for example, the christian god is the one that turned out to be the true one, all other believers shall burn in eternal damnation... Tongue
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 12:49
I consider myself an agnostic, as while I believe there is probably something more than the reality we experience with our senses, and quite possibly a being of a higher order than we mere mortals, I have no idea what shape, form, intent,  etc. that such reality and being have.  And of course, there is always the possibility that nothing exists beyond this, and there is also a possibility that one of the major religions of the world have it right.  In other words, I don't know.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 13:39
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Emotions are a part of nature, not just human nature - animals have happy, sad, fear, joy, whether they are as sophisticated as human emotions is another question, but how sophisticated human emotions are is debatable too.
 
Guess it's kind of hard for me to argue in english... but at the end you answer what I wanted... the "sophisticated emotions" are debatable... so as we don't have a proof of that we can say that there are not such "sophisticated emotions"... so... we are animals... but it's very different to percieve quemical reactions to the fact that you feel something... how you distinguis one thing to another, emotions from feelings... that's my question... and other thing, I imagine then that love doesn't exist, 'cause there are just chemical reaction and by that, all of you could possible denied that you feel love for someone, your parents, wife, sons or whatever... because as I understand it, love is way much more than the "instinct" of protect the individuals of your species... or am I wrong...???
I think that every action, emotion, motivation, drive, need, want, desire of mankind is inherently natural and governed by biochemical and bio-electrical process triggered by our interaction with our local environment (be that physical surroundings or the other animals we share that space with).
 
I also think that the characteristics that define us as human have always been present in our species, and were probably present in earlier hominids in the human branch of the family tree in one form or another. One thing that is certain is that a newborn baby transposed from 200,000, 20,000 or 2,000 years ago into the present day and raised in the 21st Century would griow-up to be indistinguishable from modern man. And by that a 21st century baby transported back in time would survive in a prehistoric tribe just as well as a prehistoric baby.
 
In other words, our sophisticated 21st century emotions that enable us to survive in the modern world are the exact same sophisitcated emotions that enabled us to survive as a hunter-gather living 200,000 years ago as part of a "primative" tribe living in a cave. Since those emotions were not "chosen" because we would one day develop into a civilisation that lived in cities, used computers and went to war, then they must be for survival in Paleolithic times.
 
Homosapiens sapiens is a social animal, that means that (like our chimpanzee cousins) we naturally live in an enlarged family group or pack. This improves our chances of survival - it gave us an evolutionary advantage. It also gave us an encoded set of rules to live by, we can only survive if the family/pack/tribe survives, therefore part of our genetic code is to protect the family tribe. Love is one of those controlling emotions that stops us from being selfish that causes us to put the survival of our family before our own safety - and to be able to do that it has to be a powerful emotion.
 
 
What?
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 13:52
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

A) Tangerine Fans are toast, probably VdGG fans too.
 
B) The idea that an entity sitting apart from me that could "show up" and judge me is not likely. Even in basic Catechism, "Where is God? God is Everywhere."


Eno, Zappa and Gilmour are also Atheists - or at least "Nontheists", according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontheists

Big smile


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 02 2009 at 13:53
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 15:40
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Emotions are a part of nature, not just human nature - animals have happy, sad, fear, joy, whether they are as sophisticated as human emotions is another question, but how sophisticated human emotions are is debatable too.
 
Guess it's kind of hard for me to argue in english... but at the end you answer what I wanted... the "sophisticated emotions" are debatable... so as we don't have a proof of that we can say that there are not such "sophisticated emotions"... so... we are animals... but it's very different to percieve quemical reactions to the fact that you feel something... how you distinguis one thing to another, emotions from feelings... that's my question... and other thing, I imagine then that love doesn't exist, 'cause there are just chemical reaction and by that, all of you could possible denied that you feel love for someone, your parents, wife, sons or whatever... because as I understand it, love is way much more than the "instinct" of protect the individuals of your species... or am I wrong...???
I think that every action, emotion, motivation, drive, need, want, desire of mankind is inherently natural and governed by biochemical and bio-electrical process triggered by our interaction with our local environment (be that physical surroundings or the other animals we share that space with).
 
I also think that the characteristics that define us as human have always been present in our species, and were probably present in earlier hominids in the human branch of the family tree in one form or another. One thing that is certain is that a newborn baby transposed from 200,000, 20,000 or 2,000 years ago into the present day and raised in the 21st Century would griow-up to be indistinguishable from modern man. And by that a 21st century baby transported back in time would survive in a prehistoric tribe just as well as a prehistoric baby.
 
In other words, our sophisticated 21st century emotions that enable us to survive in the modern world are the exact same sophisitcated emotions that enabled us to survive as a hunter-gather living 200,000 years ago as part of a "primative" tribe living in a cave. Since those emotions were not "chosen" because we would one day develop into a civilisation that lived in cities, used computers and went to war, then they must be for survival in Paleolithic times.
 
Homosapiens sapiens is a social animal, that means that (like our chimpanzee cousins) we naturally live in an enlarged family group or pack. This improves our chances of survival - it gave us an evolutionary advantage. It also gave us an encoded set of rules to live by, we can only survive if the family/pack/tribe survives, therefore part of our genetic code is to protect the family tribe. Love is one of those controlling emotions that stops us from being selfish that causes us to put the survival of our family before our own safety - and to be able to do that it has to be a powerful emotion.
 
 
 
At least you take a long explanation about Love, I would hate a short and minimalistic explanation... well... at the end of the day you are saying that monkeys in maybe 4 thousand years probably will feel love...???  I seriously doubt it and go back to my initial idea... Love is part of my soul, so I refuse to believe that feelings and emotions are the same... but again... I believe in that and you cannot be sure that feel pain and feel love or anger has to do with just chemical reactions.. the only way to determinate that is through the synthoms and that could be prooved with whoever who knows about medicine, that synthoms could not determine the illness 100% sure... so... I don't know if I express my idea correctly... jejeje...
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Points: 5148 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 15:45
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

A) Tangerine Fans are toast, probably VdGG fans too.
 
B) The idea that an entity sitting apart from me that could "show up" and judge me is not likely. Even in basic Catechism, "Where is God? God is Everywhere."
Hey!  I'm a TD and VDGG fan, and I think I'm quite alright with God.
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Points: 192 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 16:02
I am theist - and Christian. Although the word has what seems a bad reputation in some circles these days. 

I'd prefer to say I follow Jesus (sounds corny/American) but it's a relationship thing for me. I don't go to church really, although I think it can be good for meeting with other christians, and my belief is a personal thing. There are things I take issue with but it's more that I take issue with Christians of the past than the God I believe in.
And lo, the mighty riffage was played and it was good


<a href="www.last.fm/user/jonzo67" targe
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 16:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think that every action, emotion, motivation, drive, need, want, desire of mankind is inherently natural and governed by biochemical and bio-electrical process triggered by our interaction with our local environment (be that physical surroundings or the other animals we share that space with).
 
I also think that the characteristics that define us as human have always been present in our species, and were probably present in earlier hominids in the human branch of the family tree in one form or another. One thing that is certain is that a newborn baby transposed from 200,000, 20,000 or 2,000 years ago into the present day and raised in the 21st Century would griow-up to be indistinguishable from modern man. And by that a 21st century baby transported back in time would survive in a prehistoric tribe just as well as a prehistoric baby.
 
In other words, our sophisticated 21st century emotions that enable us to survive in the modern world are the exact same sophisitcated emotions that enabled us to survive as a hunter-gather living 200,000 years ago as part of a "primative" tribe living in a cave. Since those emotions were not "chosen" because we would one day develop into a civilisation that lived in cities, used computers and went to war, then they must be for survival in Paleolithic times.
 
Homosapiens sapiens is a social animal, that means that (like our chimpanzee cousins) we naturally live in an enlarged family group or pack. This improves our chances of survival - it gave us an evolutionary advantage. It also gave us an encoded set of rules to live by, we can only survive if the family/pack/tribe survives, therefore part of our genetic code is to protect the family tribe. Love is one of those controlling emotions that stops us from being selfish that causes us to put the survival of our family before our own safety - and to be able to do that it has to be a powerful emotion.
 
 
Homo sapiens sapiens is more than a social animal. It is a cultural animal who's behaviors are so intertwined with the exchange of information between its members that as far as we know no other creature like us exists. (Aliens maybe?)
 
I also think that you underestimate natural selection. I suspect a baby from 20,000 years ago would do better than the reverse but would have absolutely no chance academically against kids are 6th generation crosses between college grads from across the globe. More strikingly, I think the selection forces for some (perhaps necessary) traits involving constitution have been weakend such that a child from today going backwards might have some serious trouble.
 
I'm finding my role here is being a hardcore agnostic. I don't know so you can't know either. I didn't intend that but stepping back...interesting for self-reflection.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 17:03
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think that every action, emotion, motivation, drive, need, want, desire of mankind is inherently natural and governed by biochemical and bio-electrical process triggered by our interaction with our local environment (be that physical surroundings or the other animals we share that space with).
 
I also think that the characteristics that define us as human have always been present in our species, and were probably present in earlier hominids in the human branch of the family tree in one form or another. One thing that is certain is that a newborn baby transposed from 200,000, 20,000 or 2,000 years ago into the present day and raised in the 21st Century would griow-up to be indistinguishable from modern man. And by that a 21st century baby transported back in time would survive in a prehistoric tribe just as well as a prehistoric baby.
 
In other words, our sophisticated 21st century emotions that enable us to survive in the modern world are the exact same sophisitcated emotions that enabled us to survive as a hunter-gather living 200,000 years ago as part of a "primative" tribe living in a cave. Since those emotions were not "chosen" because we would one day develop into a civilisation that lived in cities, used computers and went to war, then they must be for survival in Paleolithic times.
 
Homosapiens sapiens is a social animal, that means that (like our chimpanzee cousins) we naturally live in an enlarged family group or pack. This improves our chances of survival - it gave us an evolutionary advantage. It also gave us an encoded set of rules to live by, we can only survive if the family/pack/tribe survives, therefore part of our genetic code is to protect the family tribe. Love is one of those controlling emotions that stops us from being selfish that causes us to put the survival of our family before our own safety - and to be able to do that it has to be a powerful emotion.
 
 
Homo sapiens sapiens is more than a social animal. It is a cultural animal who's behaviors are so intertwined with the exchange of information between its members that as far as we know no other creature like us exists. (Aliens maybe?)
Possibly: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080109100831.htm (I actually thought this study was older than this, but perhaps I'm thinking of a different one)
 
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

 
I also think that you underestimate natural selection. I suspect a baby from 20,000 years ago would do better than the reverse but would have absolutely no chance academically against kids are 6th generation crosses between college grads from across the globe.
Not necessarily, 20,000 years ago the diet of homosapiens was radically different to today, I can't find the source to back it up but there is palentological evidence that our brain-size is 8% smaller than it was 10,000 years ago - possibly due to the decrease in fish in our diet now.
 
Also, given the academic distribution across the current world population I would imagine that the 20,000 yo baby would fit in somewhere in that distribution unnoticed even if it couldn't compete with a grad student.
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

 More strikingly, I think the selection forces for some (perhaps necessary) traits involving constitution have been weakend such that a child from today going backwards might have some serious trouble.
You've got me there. It is also an extremely dangerous exercise given that 20000 years of natural selection will have made the modern infant a carrier of disease that it is immune to which could be lethal to our ancestors.
 
Luckily it is only a mind game. Wink
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

 
I'm finding my role here is being a hardcore agnostic. I don't know so you can't know either. I didn't intend that but stepping back...interesting for self-reflection.
I don't to know and I learn something every day. I can't ask for more than that. All I can do is weigh up what I read/know/learn and make a choice, it does not have to be right, it just has to sound plausible, and if tomorrow I read/learn/deduce something that changes that then I'm flexible enough to acept the change.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 17:36
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
At least you take a long explanation about Love, I would hate a short and minimalistic explanation... well... at the end of the day you are saying that monkeys in maybe 4 thousand years probably will feel love...??? 
No of course not. The seperation from the branch of the primate tree that contains monkeys was over 25 million years ago - just as we have evolved since then, so have monkeys - it is a fair assumption that whatever differences we have with that common ancestor, monkeys will also have significant differences. In other words not only have we diverged from monkeys, they have diverged from us.
 
Chimpanzees are different, first off they are not monkeys, they are apes, which makes them closer to us in terms of time (only 16 million years) and also they share 99% of their DNA with us. Now obviously that 1% makes a huge difference - whether that 1% contains "Love" I know not - certainly Chimps show affection and they get upset when the lose a mate (as do many other animals), and while it is unwise to give animals human characteristics I am willing to say that that looks like a good approximation to "love" to me.
 
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

  I seriously doubt it and go back to my initial idea... Love is part of my soul, so I refuse to believe that feelings and emotions are the same... but again... I believe in that and you cannot be sure that feel pain and feel love or anger has to do with just chemical reactions.. the only way to determinate that is through the synthoms and that could be prooved with whoever who knows about medicine, that synthoms could not determine the illness 100% sure... so... I don't know if I express my idea correctly... jejeje...
Ah... yes... well... erm... gulp... I don't debate spiritual things I only discuss science,  whatever you believe spiritually is what you believe and I respect that. Personnaly I do not believe such a thing as a soul exists, but that's just me.
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Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 19:12
One should also keep in mind that we ourselves are in fact apes.

And if you take a monophyletic approach to phylogenies, we are also monkeys since we are more closely related to Old World monkeys than Old World monkeys are related to New World monkeys.

Oh, science... always taking away our dignity...
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2009 at 20:35

Why should there be a problem of other of God's creatures feel love, too, now, as they are?

Few dog owners would question that an adult dog's love is more complex than a 9 month old human's.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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I bet God has a special place in heaven for Torman Maxt.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:31
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
 
 
[QUOTE=jampa17]  I seriously doubt it and go back to my initial idea... Love is part of my soul, so I refuse to believe that feelings and emotions are the same... but again... I believe in that and you cannot be sure that feel pain and feel love or anger has to do with just chemical reactions.. the only way to determinate that is through the synthoms and that could be prooved with whoever who knows about medicine, that synthoms could not determine the illness 100% sure... so... I don't know if I express my idea correctly... jejeje...
Ah... yes... well... erm... gulp... I don't debate spiritual things I only discuss science,  whatever you believe spiritually is what you believe and I respect that. Personnaly I do not believe such a thing as a soul exists, but that's just me.
 
Maybe that's the problem here... those who believe in God don't need to see fireworks and incredible miracles to believe in it... in the other hand, those who refuse to believe in he/she/it even if they could see a miracle, they have put it names like "mass hysteria" or "lunatic"... but still both terms do not explain this that have happen...
 
Yes, I'm talking of believing... you are talking about proof... which is, again, the initial idea of this thread...
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:38

Before this day starts, I'd like everyone to realize that every single person here has a different point of view. Dean and Micah and Mike have quite different perspectives. Robert and jampa have different viewpoints as well. And I'm just full of mumbo-jumbo. (Can I have jambalaya instead?)

Let's avoid making this about "sides?"

which rule of religious threads did I just fall into, Robert?
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:46
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Before this day starts, I'd like everyone to realize that every single person here has a different point of view. Dean and Micah and Mike have quite different perspectives. Robert and jampa have different viewpoints as well. And I'm just full of mumbo-jumbo. (Can I have jambalaya instead?)

Let's avoid making this about "sides?"

which rule of religious threads did I just fall into, Robert?



I never know what category you fall into Jay.  LOL

See, this is why arguing about these matters rarely helps, because we all use labels and have a predetermined idea of what each other believes.

For example, I am a Christian yet:

1. I, like Dean, do not believe in "souls" (whatever they are).

2. I believe everything that exists must exist physically, including God.

3. I do not believe in a "hell" that consists of everlasting punishment.

4. Faith is not "blind belief," but something more than that (I can prove this- one need only look at the meaning and cultural context of the Greek word pistis).

5. I believe in mechanical determinism.

And many, many other things that sets me apart from the usual stereotypes about Christian beliefs.

So many times when someone argues against something I believe, it's often not something I believe.  Smile
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:51
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Before this day starts, I'd like everyone to realize that every single person here has a different point of view. Dean and Micah and Mike have quite different perspectives. Robert and jampa have different viewpoints as well. And I'm just full of mumbo-jumbo. (Can I have jambalaya instead?)

Let's avoid making this about "sides?"

which rule of religious threads did I just fall into, Robert?



I never know what category you fall into Jay.  LOL

See, this is why arguing about these matters rarely helps, because we all use labels and have a predetermined idea of what each other believes.

For example, I am a Christian yet:

1. I, like Dean, do not believe in "souls" (whatever they are).

2. I believe everything that exists must exist physically, including God.

3. I do not believe in a "hell" that consists of everlasting punishment.

4. Faith is not "blind belief," but something more than that (I can prove this- one need only look at the meaning and cultural context of the Greek word pistis).

5. I believe in mechanical determinism.

And many, many other things that sets me apart from the usual stereotypes about Christian beliefs.

So many times when someone argues against something I believe, it's often not something I believe.  Smile
 
Interesting thought you got there... I don't know how you believe in God and not in souls but it's interesting as well...
 
In the other hand I'm a Catholic, that knows very well the arguments of the religion I choose to follow, so, you can put me on the level in my head "Warning: this one believe in God and Mary".... but I'm more on the side of studying history, social dinamics and common believing of the different religions... so... maybe that help you to understand me as well...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2009 at 08:54
^^ I'm not sure that many Christians would agree that you're a Christian. The concept of an (immortal) soul is the heart of that religion.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 03 2009 at 08:55
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