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ClemofNazareth View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 03:29
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by *frinspar* *frinspar* wrote:


What's funny to me, not ha-ha funny but irony funny, are the same people who refuse to have honest discussions about gun laws in this country, are many of the same people now clamoring to save the world (my hyperbole) from alligators because of that child's tragic death at the Disney park.


And many are the same folks who are passionate defenders of human fetus when it comes to the abortion debate, but also support the death penalty, mandatory sentencing laws, cutting off immigration and eliminating Obamacare after that fetus is born. Sanctity of life indeed.

Never forget though that at the heart of the gun debate is a deep (and justified) mistrust of our own government. And given the long, long history of Feds running headlong down a slippery slope any time civil liberties or constitutional rights are legally restricted, that paranoia is to a certain extent justified.

I'm a liberal , but I'm currently in a conservative state. I eat lunch withAgriculture professors and university police, both groups lean conservative, but I still don't understand this claim I've long heard that Conservatives mistrust the government, and therefore I don't put much credence in it. How can a party and individuals within it claim to mistrust the government, supposedly because they (the government) are the ones with the guns, when they are also incredibly hawkish and reliably vote to increase funding for military spending? All I see from Republicans/Conservatives is an array of issues, some which they're for and some which they're against. I don't find the supposed Conservative mistrust of government as offering much explanatory value at all. It seems more like a post hoc rationalization. Otherwise, they ought to have sided with the protesters in Ferguson, Missouri.


There's no question a heavy majority of conservatives (and liberals for that matter) distrust the government. This is a trend that really started in the Nixon era and has continued since, abating only slightly in the early Reagan years and right after 9/11: http://www.people-press.org/2015/11/23/1-trust-in-government-1958-2015/.

And the idea that the second amendment is as much about protection against the government as it is for foreign enemies is also well-established, I'm not sure why anyone who's lived in his country for any length of time would feel otherwise. http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/65_see_gun_rights_as_protection_against_tyranny
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 10:48
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by *frinspar* *frinspar* wrote:


What's funny to me, not ha-ha funny but irony funny, are the same people who refuse to have honest discussions about gun laws in this country, are many of the same people now clamoring to save the world (my hyperbole) from alligators because of that child's tragic death at the Disney park.


And many are the same folks who are passionate defenders of human fetus when it comes to the abortion debate, but also support the death penalty, mandatory sentencing laws, cutting off immigration and eliminating Obamacare after that fetus is born. Sanctity of life indeed.

Never forget though that at the heart of the gun debate is a deep (and justified) mistrust of our own government. And given the long, long history of Feds running headlong down a slippery slope any time civil liberties or constitutional rights are legally restricted, that paranoia is to a certain extent justified.

I'm a liberal , but I'm currently in a conservative state. I eat lunch withAgriculture professors and university police, both groups lean conservative, but I still don't understand this claim I've long heard that Conservatives mistrust the government, and therefore I don't put much credence in it. How can a party and individuals within it claim to mistrust the government, supposedly because they (the government) are the ones with the guns, when they are also incredibly hawkish and reliably vote to increase funding for military spending? All I see from Republicans/Conservatives is an array of issues, some which they're for and some which they're against. I don't find the supposed Conservative mistrust of government as offering much explanatory value at all. It seems more like a post hoc rationalization. Otherwise, they ought to have sided with the protesters in Ferguson, Missouri.

Well you hit it on the head my friend. 
Conservatives mistrust government but only in terms of social spending. Welfare, the big 3 entitlements, and increasingly education (which is weird I thought conservatives always believed education was the key to pulling yourself up by those good ol boostraps) these are there targets. Also unions, regulations, stuff like that. Basically economically is where they want gov to stay away. They LOVE government when it comes to defense spending, as well as stomping on civil liberties, "morality" etc  
This is the difference I learned between conservatives and libertarians who are at least true in their beliefs. 

Policing has been an interesting window to the mind. There are libertarians who seem to range from supportive of cops but critical when need be, to outright hateful of the idea and think they're authoritarian. Conservatives however have been extremely gung ho on supporting police to the point where it's irrational. Like we all know violence is bad, it's wrong for those who have taken to violence against cops but many refuse to acknowledge the problems in our police system, and in fact defend them. No matter how blatantly bad the incident. Conservative v Liberatian divide. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 11:16
Let's solve the gun problem the Republican way: 
http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 12:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:



<span style="line-height: 18.2px;">
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

</span>One shouldn't consider that. That's not how a legal system works.


Amendments. They've been implemented throughout our history. The document isn't static. It took almost 100 years to add the 15th Amendment that prohibits the denial of the right to vote based on color or creed, and 150 years to adopt the 19th Amendment allowing women to vote in 1920. An Amendment has even been repealed. So yes, that is how the system works.

Quite. The Magna Carta, one of the most famous and important constitutional documents in history (and arguably the most important in the history of democracy) has been completely repealed and supplanted by more appropriate constitutional law in the 801 years since its signing yet that hasn't altered its importance or significance one iota. 
That's not how legal system work Pat? That IS how legal system work. Laws have to first and foremost apply to the times and societies they are supposed to regulate. What do you mean with that short statement?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 12:25
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^I don't think the 'no fly, no buy' policy is the MAIN thing, however I don't see it as something so idiotic. Administratively, logistically difficult, yes. But other than that, what do you see so inherently stupid with it? 


The removal of a constitutional right without due process in the form lists whose administration are not subject to review nor the democratic process does not exactly set a warm and fuzzy precedent. The mesh of those lists also tend to be so fine that far too much gets sieved.
I agree with the difficulties of making it happen and the possibility of error. That doesn't mean for me that the idea hasn't some merit and that it could be beneficial.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 19:58
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:


Your poll is indicative of a rise in people wanting stricter gun control, and a precipitous drop in wanting it to remain the same. It also is rather old. Recent polls showing Americans want stricter gun control, not necessarily banning guns, but how they are purchased:



Most Americans are dissatisfied with gun laws.

But it really all matters on how the question is framed:



It is not quite old. It has data from 2016. You poll you cited is a completely different question. The disattisfied portion would of course include people who want less strict gun control than we currently have. And yes of course it depends how the question if phrased, this is a basic tenant of all polling. Nothing changes my overall point. A lot of Americans are not in favor of gun control. It's not relegated to a minority of NRA zombie gun f**kers.


Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Amendments. They've been implemented throughout our history. The document isn't static. It took almost 100 years to add the 15th Amendment that prohibits the denial of the right to vote based on color or creed, and 150 years to adopt the 19th Amendment allowing women to vote in 1920. An Amendment has even been repealed. So yes, that is how the system works.


What are you talking about? Yes amendments have been appealed. Like the 2nd amendment should be repealed to move completely forward on gun reform. This is my point. However, the amendment cannot simply be equivocated away since it's outdated.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 20:00
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:



<span style="line-height: 18.2px;">
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

</span>One shouldn't consider that. That's not how a legal system works.


Amendments. They've been implemented throughout our history. The document isn't static. It took almost 100 years to add the 15th Amendment that prohibits the denial of the right to vote based on color or creed, and 150 years to adopt the 19th Amendment allowing women to vote in 1920. An Amendment has even been repealed. So yes, that is how the system works.

Quite. The Magna Carta, one of the most famous and important constitutional documents in history (and arguably the most important in the history of democracy) has been completely repealed and supplanted by more appropriate constitutional law in the 801 years since its signing yet that hasn't altered its importance or significance one iota. 
That's not how legal system work Pat? That IS how legal system work. Laws have to first and foremost apply to the times and societies they are supposed to regulate. What do you mean with that short statement?


Laws apply until they are changed. I mean change the law. They don't get to be ignored because we call them racist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2016 at 22:43
^Oh ok. That I understand. Of course that's true. I was talking about changing the law, not just blatantly stop paying any attention to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2016 at 01:01
Staying on the gun topic, Trump has managed to do something I never thought possible: Get the NRA to not back something gun related! 
Apparently his comments that armed club goers are a great idea was a bit too much for some of them. 

One said the idea "defies commonsense" this is coming from the NRA....
I know it's not true but I wanna believe so badly Trump is just staging the greatest political satire ever. LOLWhere he's actually exposing our faults via exaggeration, by getting Repubs to decry racist politics, the NRA to call a gun idea nonsense.

Hard to have much fun with it though when earlier he also said it's time the country must start considering racial profiling...
He's exposing our faults, but I fear in a purely exploitative and dark way
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2016 at 02:43
US could spend 2.6 trillion less on health than original Obamacare estimates. 
OK, so part of this reduction is apparently from the weak economy as well as Budget Control Act, but seems part is indeed due to the ACA. 

Now, overall I was not super pleased with the bill. There were parts I liked, parts I didn't, thought it was very messy and convoluted and doesn't address some major issues with our health system and really wanted a public option, but I did say I would wait and see how things unfurl to judge it. 
Well, economic ruin never happened, skyrocketing costs never happened, insurance has been extended to millions of people and it seems the growth of healthcare costs have been slowed. The medicaid expansion has been one of it's huge successes. 
So overall: I have to say ACA has been a success. 

I still hope, (I know not even in my dreams) we push for a public option, and there are still monopoly/competition/waste issues that need to be addressed, but I'd say Obama's major legacy, timid and moderate as it is (remember when the idea was pushed by conservatives in the 90s as their alternative to a straight up universal system??) has been moderately successful. 
Hope we can continue to push for more. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2016 at 12:55
Since we discussed VPs a bit, here's an article explaining the choice Wall Street/Finance has given Clinton. 
"We'll cut you off if you pick Warren"

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/20/wall-street-cash-or-elizabeth-warren-hillarys-choice.html?__source=newsletter%7Ceveningbrief

Though as stated, I wouldn't mind this actually as she's better fit for the Senate, and not being tucked away for 4-8 years and tethered to however the Clinton Presidency turns out.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2016 at 14:43
Tim Kaine looks to be the frontrunner in Hillary's VP search. Wondering what Mick has to say about that, he looks good to me.

Also, CNN rolled out the interactive electoral map again. Great to be able to wargame again.

Fiddling around with it, I, the esteemed Dr. Kelvin (PhD, OMG), have discovered that the prognosis for Donald "Corn Hair" "Cheeto Jesus" J. Trump is exceptionally grim. Between his rhetoric, his "campaign" "strategy", his lack of resources, and the demographics, in order to win he must somehow:

1) Hold the at risk Red Wall states (Utah, Arizona, Georgia)

2) Win the swing states he gives a damn about (Florida, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin)

3) Win either Michigan or Pennsylvania

Hillary can best him just by holding the Blue Wall and taking any two swing states (which here includes Utah et al, but not Nevada, Colorado, and Virginia - she's definitely getting those). You'll also notice that North Carolina, despite being potentially safe for Trump, is rather meaningless - add NC to 1 and 2 but fail to get 3 and the Electoral College is simply deadlocked, and lose NC but complete the three steps and he wins anyways.

I'm calling it for Hillary right now. We're getting our first female president. And to think that it took until September for me to call the election for Obama in '12!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2016 at 15:03
Donald Trump has around 2 millions in his campaign coffers. 

The "suicide campaign" conspiracy theory gaining in credibility....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 00:35
Seriously, I know it was the stuff of tin foil hats/jokes but I have sincerely believed if Trump always intended to suicide his campaign. 
We now know he was only ever a protest candidate and their goal was to hit double digit polling, and I read somewhere supposedly an insider said the whole thing was just for his brand/ego (which is no shock).
Anyone read the latest blurb on how most of Trump's fundraising has gone to...himself. Lining his pockets and nothing more. 


Also it cant be denied: trump IS a long time Clinton friend and ally....I don't think it can be ruled out he was there/has been going for a bit just to give her the easiest possible time. Either by knocking out the legit names and getting Cruz to be the nominee, or the Donald himself and he increasingly alienates the base/says outlandish things to aid the cause. 
The guy spent barely money, doesn't bother to fundraise, never set up a ground campaign/network, he fired his campaign manager...I really feel it's possible he was just a protest vote that went berserk and/or is out to aid Clinton. 

IF that really is the case, it better never come outLOL as it would mean our democracy is literally a show, it'd be a mockery of what we claim to be as a country and would mean all the "electable/must beat trump" stuff would be obvious bunk, and Sanders fans would be quite rightfully livid. 


Edited by JJLehto - June 22 2016 at 01:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 00:40
Speaking of Sanders fans being livid...NJ State Assembly member John Wisniewski (who represented my district actually) has just lost his spot at the DNC and thus his status as a super delegate. 
He was an early supporter of Sanders, and even chaired the Sanders campaign in NJ. 

Yeah...about the whole "No party bias" "The system does reflect the people's will" "It obviously means something all the SDs backed Clinton" yeah, ok

Party politics means there are rewards and punishments for who you back. 


Edited by JJLehto - June 22 2016 at 00:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 01:05
Originally posted by LearsFool LearsFool wrote:

Tim Kaine looks to be the frontrunner in Hillary's VP search. Wondering what Mick has to say about that, he looks good to me.


Yeah, Kaine and fellow VA senator Mark Warner. They were the 2 earliest and consistent names I've seen. 
Makes sense they are very Clinton-eqsue picks: Moderate-ish, safe, boring. That's not to be funny, it's just the Clinton style. I never really thought she'd go for balance (Warren, Sherrod Brown, Al Franken) or wow factor (Cory Booker). Makes sense too, going too far to the left could alienate alot of people. Like I said elsewhere, wouldn't want to have our version of Sarah Palin...the person who fires up the base at the cost of  everyone elseLOL Which may happen with someone like Warren. Honestly, to non Democrats I think she is less appealing than even Sanders. I personally know people who like-ish or respect him while hating Warren. 
I still say it's dangerous to pull any senator out, Dems need every seat they can get especially since they can very possibly take the Senate. 

I still like the idea of Tom Perez. Has obvious ties to Obama, a solid liberal/labor record. 
The early favorite was Julian Castro but I haven't heard his name as much, I wonder if it's due to protest from liberals over his selling discounted houses to wall street firmsEmbarrassed


Edited by JJLehto - June 22 2016 at 01:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 02:25
Anyway, sorry for the chain posting but I got distracted. THIS is why I came here for the night


Thoughts on the Supreme Court ruling? I'm reading up on it, but seems it now is OK for the police to use evidence gathered from an illegal search. 
Apparently the majority ruling, summed up by Clarence Thomas, was if you are stopped illegally but then a warrant is found, even for a traffic violation, it's then legitimized and thus evidence obtained in said illegal stop can now be used against you. 

I am not a lawyer, don't claim to be an expert on law and feel weird saying such a thing about an Ivy League graduate and Supreme Court justice but what kind of sh*t is this? Not only does that logic not follow to me, there are moral and realistic concerns about this. 
Justice Sotomayor pretty much laid it out brilliantly. This means someone can be stopped for anything, look for a warrant, if they find one even for not paying a fine, goodbye 4th amendment rights. At first I wondered how realistic this is, but she pointed out that outstanding warrants are pretty common, 16,000 in Ferguson for example out of 21,000 people, she then lays out the clear impacts this will have on minorities. 
Even if let go in the end, you will have something on your record. 

Very disturbing days. I am not surprised at all the conservative judges backed this ruling, but very sad that Breyer is who tipped it over to 5-3
With some of the issues we've been experiencing in policing, I don't see this as helping the problem


Edited by JJLehto - June 22 2016 at 02:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 08:56
One step closer to being a full prison state. We're far from it yet but with steps like this, no doubt eventually we'll make it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 13:37
Or we could just turn Florida into one big prison, like in Escape from New York -

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2016 at 13:47
^It may be an improvement... Tongue
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