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The Dark Elf 
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 Posted: April 08 2014 at 10:53 |
 moshkito wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
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But it is not a matter of "xenophobic ethnocentrism", it is you who are incapable of looking past your obvious anti-American/anti-British (yes, "British" has only one damn 't') biases and prejudices and giving credit where credit is due.
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Again, the point is, and you still don't see it, that both of these countries were much more developed in the media, specially radio and television, which helped dictate that there was music in America and England, but in Africa there was no music. And later, the islands brought you reggae, which has been there for 500 years! Go see the film "Cinema Paradiso" to get a slight idea of how different it was! |
Mosh, I am typing this very slowly (so please read it slowly). Let us forget your anti-imperialist harangues and specious cinematic references. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the point. The point, Mosh, and the only point. This entire discussion hinges on your unfathomable (and bigoted) disagreement with the following statement by ExittheLemming:
...I do accept that musical developments in countries outside England would have been pivotal in the subsequent developments and directions of Prog Rock but I still believe the consensus view that it's origins are predominantly from English culture. The following authors also arrive at the same conclusion and do attempt with varying degrees of success, to explain the reasons from a cultural, social and economic perspective...
If you have specific evidence that what we refer to as "Progressive Rock" did not originate in Britain in the late 60s, then provide it. That's it. No socialist babble. No revisionist worldview prattle. No mind-numbing flights of film fantasy.
moshkito wrote:
I can honestly say, that, sadly, even in a thread like this, some folks are trying hard to close down the avenues of creativity and cultural heritages as invalid creative instincts. |
It is baseless statements like this that annoy me. No one is closing avenues of cultural creativity. No one is saying that those original British prog bands did not have influences from everyone from Rachmaninoff to Bach to Miles Davis to Roland Kirk. But influences are different than the actual creation of prog rock by the Brits. So give credit where credit is due, Mosh. Come on, you can do it. You won't lose your membership card to the International Socialist Organization.
moshkito wrote:
It is all way too mixed up for anyone to make sense of. But in the meantime, the Brittish and the Americans owned the world. Oh well 450 years ago it was the Portuguese and the Spanish ... my oh my, how they have fallen! |
Perhaps it is mixed up in your hallucinatory head, Mosh, particularly because of all the electro-shock treatments. But for the rest of us who can actually follow along with a discussion, it is pretty cut and dry.
And it is "British". B-R-I-T-I-S-H. From the word "Britain". Unless you are using Ranulph Higden's Polychronicon for a little light reading and are speaking in a Middle-English dialect from the 14th century, but even then it would be Brittische.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Dean
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 10:58 |
I prefer Britititititish myself, there are lots of tits in Brititititititian.
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What?
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:04 |
Dean wrote:
I prefer Britititititish myself, there are lots of tits in Brititititititian. |
Hmmm...I suppose I should stay abreast of such developments.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:04 |
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Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire?
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Dean
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:07 |
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog.
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What?
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The T
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:07 |
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Damn mosquito bites are really annoying
Edited by The T - April 08 2014 at 11:07
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:08 |
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog. |
I was being sarcastic.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:18 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog. |
I was being sarcastic. |
Sarcasm originated in Britain. It was discovered by either Jonathan Swift or Sir Isaac Newton, I believe. It had something to do with the fog. Or perhaps it was disdain for the French. Anyway, if you combine the words "fog" and "French", you get "frog". And there you have it.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:22 |
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OK, but being that the internet is a great leveler in the business of non detection of sarcasm, I thought I would make sure.
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Progosopher
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:28 |
moshkito wrote:
Progosopher wrote:
Some of my views on the original question: Structure in music is only a means to facilitate a musician's vision, as structure in a building is only a means to facilitate an architects vision.
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I would say this is only 50% right!
Structure, is, quite often, something that we can discern AFTERWARDS. Not everyone composes ahead of time. You might have a small detail or something you want to play, but many times you don't know what it will bring until after you play it.
Krautrock, and a lot of the improvisational music that came to be known as psychedelic (for example) was in many ways music where the folks were too stoned to have it recorded or even produced. (Sometimes, not always!) Take this with some milk and sugar please! It's a bit of a joke, but it tells you that when you are in it, for the "experience", you would not be thinking about recording it.
This was what made the really early Grateful Dead recordings so valuable. The amazing endless jams in the 5 or 6 hour concerts. Most of which became a sort of imprint for a lot of the stuff done later. Other influences, for example would be Guru Guru's 3rd album, which is total Jimi Hendrix, as was a lot of their earlier stuff with Ax G.
It's not "pre-defined music", thus, how can you explain a "structure"?
There might be a moment or two, or sound, or something that they are going to play around (try LSD March!) and the rest is wide open, and the structure comes as it comes and people adjust to whatever they know and can do. READ Helmut Hattler's interview at PA ... "think of something ... play it!" ... when they were stuck! You could say that they might have played the easiest thing they know?
I'm not sure that you are giving musicians credit for being able to improvise and create something that is not "composed". It's like saying that Keith Jarrett is f**king insane ... how can he remember it all before he sits at the piano for 30 minutes and such?
We're not giving credit for the fact that recording has shown us something that "composition" and "music" didn't have before, (I suppose you could say that 100 years ago, any "composer" would have written it down, but if you play an instrument, there are times when you don't know what you played ... it just came out! Now you can sit and break it down. 100 years ago you couldn't as well as today!
See how recording has changed music? We're not allowing it to "develop" because we keep insisting on structure, when we don't even know what we might be doing while experimenting. And all those Kraftwerk, and this and that were just that!
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Several good points are made here, my friend. I especially like the insight on how recordings have brought out aspects of music not commonly acknowledged before, namely improvisation. It was certainly present before the technology, but since music was disseminated through publication and performance of published works it frequently fell between the cracks. Many Baroque composers allowed space for improvisation by the musicians.
However, even if subconscious, vision is still an aspect of improvisation. Yes, structure may only be seen after the fact in these cases, but whatever the musician plays is an extension of what is in the mind of the musician whether it is consciously known or not. After the fact recognition does not deny what is actually present. Now, some structures are looser and more broad than others, but they are still structures. Non-pre-defined music still has structure, it is only heard after the fact and it could be almost anything. Even the longest jam has changes and that indicates structure. As a musician myself, I have listened back to recordings I have made of jams and have found structure in them I was not aware of at the time. They were not tight, and certainly showed no pre-determined composition, but there were changes made that everybody followed and participated in. That is structure.
I am finding some difficulty with this discussion. As commonly happens, we spend as much time, if not more, on side issues rather than on the original topic. As usual, a clear set of definitions would help us out here. What is meant by structure? Is it a matter of composition or of something else? Something more? What do we mean by composition? Questions such as these are issues of discussion themselves, so unless we get that clarity from the OP we will inevitably meander through the discussion. And even then, we would question the definitions. This is an open forum, though, anything goes. Never a dull moment on the Forum!
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:30 |
rogerthat wrote:
OK, but being that the internet is a great leveler in the business of non detection of sarcasm, I thought I would make sure. |
Well, one must always assure that sarcasm is addressed in its purest form. Of course, there are those that will say that sarcasm was not original to Britain but was invented by the Ayyubid Muslims and taken captive and brought back to England during the Crusades by Richard the Lionheart. That is only conjecture, however.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:32 |
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Whatever, now I really must take leave of this side-side-track because it's really splitting hairs over nothing.
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Progosopher
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:32 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog. |
I was being sarcastic. |
Sarcasm originated in Britain. It was discovered by either Jonathan Swift or Sir Isaac Newton, I believe. It had something to do with the fog. Or perhaps it was disdain for the French. Anyway, if you combine the words "fog" and "French", you get "frog". And there you have it. |
If you combine two of the common letters shared by the names Jonathan Swift and Sir Isaac Newton, "t" and "I," with the word "Brit" you get "Twit."  Sorry.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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The T
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:37 |
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This website is Canadian. Live with that you Anglo-centrists
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Dean
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:41 |
We live with Rush being notionally regarded as a Prog band. Mostly.
...and Celine Dion of course.
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What?
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:42 |
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Can Celine Dion live with Celine Dion, let alone Britttttishers?
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Dean
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:42 |
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog. |
I was being sarcastic. |
So was I.
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What?
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 11:44 |
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Ah
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 12:09 |
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Cursed double post!
Edited by The Dark Elf - April 08 2014 at 17:48
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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The Dark Elf
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13109
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Posted: April 08 2014 at 12:10 |
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire? |
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog. |
I was being sarcastic. |
So was I. |
As was my abbreviated history of sarcasm. I am sure someone can offer a post-colonial revisionist history of sarcasm as well. Perhaps John Cleese....or Pedro.
Edited by The Dark Elf - April 08 2014 at 17:52
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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