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Topic ClosedVan der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd

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Poll Question: who is your favourite band
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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2012 at 23:59
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

. I can see where people would find VdGG like nails on a chalkboard and truly hate them [which, paradoxically, is a 'positive' in my eyes]; I cannot see where PF would inspire that reaction because they're worse than hate-inspiring -- they're just bland / boring.


Waters's strained vocals sound like nails to a chalkboard on large parts of Wall.  Especially The Trial.
 
Their fingernail choir will make your chalkboard sing...
 
I prefer VdGG's fingernails over PF's, they groomed themselves much better, they had to be, in order to be Britian's most fashionable band.  And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard.  So VdGG for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 00:17
Originally posted by -Radioswim- -Radioswim- wrote:

Originally posted by geogkrt geogkrt wrote:

Pink Floyd is mostly pretty boring. Van Der Graaf Generator wins.

Well I do really like Wish You Were Here and Animals, but the other albums range from mediocre to...well mediocre. They haven't made anything particularly bad, I just find them bland. And I don't think Dark Side of the Moon is anything special, either.

I wouldn't consider them medicre, but I still to this day (and probably never will) understand Pink Floyd's absolutely massive commercial appeal.

VDGG is the clear winner for me though.

Guys, I'd like to make you aware of the fact that the Barret's Floyds are recognized to have influenced VdGG. The big difference is that VdGG, King Crimson and few others have been the first in detaching from the Summer of Love and the flower power optimism to dig into darker environments, 

But when I read about "commercial appeal" and "boring" I think you have listened to PF starting only from The Final Cut.
Is "Echoes" a mediocre song? Is "Interstellar Overdrive" or "Atom Earth Mother" commercial? 

My impression is that you are using the same approach of Johhny Rotten.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 01:15
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
1) Floyd not prog? No, none of us considered them so in the 70's. Blues rock dressed up with sound fx that burnouts and granola eaters thought was heavy. Very popular, though, no doubt.
 
Us? Who is us? Your little clique? First, you try to make three people sound like a veritable tidal wave of VdGG fandom, and now those same three somehow make a plurality or majority in regards to your limited definition of prog.
 
What makes VdGG prog? The insipid whining vocals? The fact you can't even hum along to a song, or find a memorable tune? Maybe you can't.
 
Melody is not a VdGG forte. But the obscurant lyrics are interesting to read.
 
Oh, I know, the fact that no one in the U.S. ever even heard of the band in 70s. You and your mainstream loving friends didn't know them. Several heads who were hip to the underground knew of them. They sold out NYC's Beacon Theater on their one and only U.S. appearance (over two thousand fans) in '76 and were played on import programs (and on college stations) across the country. But yeah, they wouldn't have been in Rolling Stone.
 
My "mainstream loving" friends? That's rich. We've seen Camel. We've seen Gentle Giant. Seen Mclaughlin, Miles Davis , Capt. Beefheart, Tom Waits and King Crimson. I'm not sure what you mean by mainstream, but sorry, we stopped at high-pitched, tormented arias.  A whole 2000 people saw VdGG? Gosh, such a high water mark in rock history. How many got free tickets or a Pete Hamill bobblehead?
 
(but they were big in Italy LOL). And Holland. And Belgium. And France. And French Canada. And had a big cult following in Britain (remember, they appeared on the cover of Melody Maker as Britain's most fashionable band). Oh, and a snotty LOL right back at you (and your blog sucksWink )
 
Wow! The Benelux countries? And Quebec? Woot! Those are some real feathers in their caps. What next, are they going to conquer Uzbekistan? Or Rwanda? My blog sucks? Well, since it's not a Pete Hamill Teenbeat Blog with big VdGG logos plastered on it, I can understand why it wouldn't hold your attention.
 
If I look at an album like Animals or Wish You Were Here, I think distinctly prog. I don't.
 
You're wrong.
 
As far as your misguided knock on Genesis (I wasn't knocking them, so you're misguided), two of their albums with Gabriel were top ten in the UK (SEbtP and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway) and two more were top ten while Hackett remained in the Band (Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering). In the U.S., all four of those albums were in the top 70 or better - all before their "commercial success". But the OP stated that they, along w/PF, were one of the two biggest prog bands in existence. Not until the PC hits came along and people worked their way back (Yes and ELP were bigger in the 70's, that I remember well). That's what I was addressing, I wasn't knocking Genesis in that statement.
 
As far as Genesis, you inferred that their commercial success in the 80s was the reason their earlier albums have sold. That was not the case as I pointed out; ergo, you are misguided.
 
That's something VdGG couldn't even dream of in their heyday. Well, they never had a heyday, actually. When you, Mr Elf, are gigging with a band that gets huge critical acclaim, is namechecked by a bewildering array of artists (musicians, authors, film directors), gets fantastic coverage in the British/European music press (you've seen the Hammill article in the latest Mojo then?), and can fill audtitoriums in several countries with crowds ranging from 1,200 - 3,000 (or more in some cases), then I'll take your comments seriously.
 
Considering you have done nothing but act as a shill for your pet cult band, and you have not filled small municipal auditoriums either, then that discounts your opinion as well. I  love how you use the phrase "bewildering array of artists" like VdGG was important. Like Elmore James,  or Elvis, or Chuck Berry or The Beatles. Or PINK FLOYD. LOL
 
2) A matter of taste, yes. I would suggest that, growing up in the 70s, a huge swathe of young listeners in every demographic (including plenty of punks that I knew, as well as hippies, rockers, metalheads, college radicals, etc. ) enjoyed Floyd. And still do. And many can't stand them and find them boring. Music for sheep. We hung in different crowds and read different journalists, obviously. Fair enough. Still think the Syd stuff, and late '60s stuff of Floyd's is pretty outstanding though.
 
As far as "many" not standing Floyd, they have sold over 250 million albums worldwide (like Floyd has outsold VdGG in Italy and Belgium for instance). I'd be willing to bet that even the majority of your beret-wearing, clove cigarette-smoking nihilist friends have worn out and replaced countless Floyd albums and upgraded from vinyl to 8-track to cassette to CD and so on just like millions of others (that's more than the "many" you refer to, which I assume, again, amounts to three). That's what great bands do - they get repeat business and add generations of fans.
 
But truthfully, I think VdGG would've been a great instrumental band. They probably would have sold more albums in Liechtenstein and San Marino without the obnoxious singing.
 
3) This matter of taste thing is getting repetitive. I would say rightly that DSotM is acclaimed as one of the greatest albums ever recorded by nearly every rock reviewer on the planet, not by a few oddball eccentrics who wish to prove their decadency. The same sort who would make the sodden claim that The Beatles were overrated. The Beatles weren't over-rated, but Dark Side is (it is acknowledged as an important 'classic' by most, but it's also held up by tons of musicians as everything that's wrong with classic rock. To me, it's worse than crap because it's not even offensive... it's bland and dull (but, again, great sound fx that really had the masses thinking they were hearing something heavy, maaaaan).
 
You would be in the minority on a planet of one, Little Prince. Again, you use the words "tons of musicians", but there are plenty of musician polls that rate DSotM and Pink Floyd extremely high, whereas VdGG is a footnote beneath a citation on the back side of a food stamp.
 
4) Johhny Rotten holds about as much musical weight with me as Gary Glitter. Well, you are on the wrong end of history there. There's no convincing you of his importance (historically w/the SP's, but musically moreso with PIL) so I won't try. But those same critics you talk of biggin' up Dark Side will also speak of JR's mega-importance in the history of rock (even mainstream slop like Rolling Stone and Spin big up JR).
 
Sorry, for someone so keen on apparent musicianship, your idolization of Rotten seems tragically  misplaced. But Rotten did say Alice Cooper's 'Killer' was the greatest album of all time, so I guess he isn't all bad. Funny thing, Rotten didn't say that about a VdGG album. Shocked
 
Rotten is a loudmouth novelty act with safety pins and bad hair. Get off my lawn you punks or I'll call the cops *shakes stick*... don't mess with the Dark Elf!!
 
Once I saw Iggy and the Stooges and the MC5 in the early 70s, the later punk scene seemed like a joke. And far too late.
 
 
 If we were looking at the sheer amount of bands that counted them as influences, Floyd would simply crush VdGG. But there are tons of noted/famous musicians who'd prefer VdGG over Floyd and I like them better than the artists who like Floyd (Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel would be two; I rememeber Phil having some very unflattering things to say about Floyd in the press, but he's a VdGG fan, especially of Guy Evans [when I talked to Phil a few years back, he went on about how close he and Guy were back in the day and about what a great drummer he was [and is, although I know Phil hasn't seen Guy in years]) 
 
Again with the "tons" reference. Let's see, a ton is 2000 pounds. Are you saying four or five really fat bass players prefer VdGG? I would suggest, from a pure "tonnage" aspect, more musicians prefer Floyd by weight. Yeah, Phil Collins is a virtual paragon of musical integrity. Sing me Su-su-sudio.
 
Not just us bourgeois listeners, mind you, but bands. That sell albums. Something VdGG never could quite manage. VdGG sold quite a few albums in Europe and even The Least broke Britain's top fifty (they did quite a lot better than that in other countries). The most recent VdGG album made number 13 on Britain's 'Indy Charts' and the label head told me that if the Amazon sales/rankings were counted (which they've now started to do) then it would have made the mainstream rock charts. I've seen the band several times since they've reformed in places like the Royal Festival Hall, Liverpool Philharmonic, Leicester De Montford Hall (where Genesis Live was recorded), Amsterdam's Paradiso, Manchester's Bridgewater Hall, London's Sheperd's Bush Empire, etc, and they were a huge draw (so, around 1,500 - 3,000 at each gig). And they've drawn more than that in Montreal, Quebec City, Moscow, Rome (well, everywhere in Italy naturally), etc. That's at least respectable. Wouldn't you say?
 
Look, you trot out the same tired statistics and quotes, and then act like I should be impressed by a band managing to fill a 1500 seat hall. I've seen local bands that can do that. Who cares? You really love VdGG. I mean, it's almost a creepy, stalking kind of love that would have a girl seeking a restraining order. But hey, to each his own.  
 
Except in Italy. As far as Floyd being bland, I guess you've never seen one of their concerts. I suppose you've never heard, as I have, 70,000 people all singing "Wish You Were Here" along with the band. Chilling, yes. Oh brother. Spare me. Were they raising their lighters and giving each other back rubs? With tears in their eyes because of the heaviness of the 'scene'? Kill me.
 
I've seen hundreds of concerts in my life by every band from Alice Cooper to Frank Zappa. I've never seen a better show than a Pink Floyd concert (and Floyd isn't even my favorite band). Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your little clique, but I don't smoke clove cigarettes or wear a beret.
 
There aren't 70,000 people on the planet who even know who VdGG are. And once they heard them, they would indeed be horrified.Wink Good one...
 
Again, I really do like VdGG from a musicianship standpoint. If they could erase the god-awful caterwauling that accompanies it, I would listen more often.
 
LOL Fascinating to witness a frustrated writer who's started up his own blog (as if that weren't a cliche) in his mom's basement, for a reading audience of eight, exert his 'musical knowledge' when his nose is bent out of shape!
jc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 01:17
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


when I read about "commercial appeal" and "boring" I think you have listened to PF starting only from The Final Cut.
Is "Echoes" a mediocre song? Is "Interstellar Overdrive" or "Atom Earth Mother" commercial? 

My impression is that you are using the same approach of Johhny Rotten.
 
I think Floyd is brilliant up to, but not including, DSOTM (but that's just IMO)


Edited by bucka001 - June 22 2012 at 01:42
jc
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 02:57
^ I believe what you are saying is that the Floyd kind of stopped exploring, having those journeys of musical discovery ... right?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 03:04
Pink Floyd will win  this poll for sure 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 03:12
^ There is no end to this poll ... but ... [shutting my eyes, stretching my arms out] I see ... a tie ... again ... .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 03:37
I think that a generic "Versus" will always lead to discussions of this kind and unless you are not comparing Univers Zero and Plastic Bertrand it will often be a tie.

Probably more specific questions would help. 

However even if apparently very distant I think that there are many contact points between Pink Floyd and Hammill, if not with VdGG
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 10:18
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


  And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard.


Eeek. But I do also like Hammill's nails better.  He's got the voice to pull off his angry act, while Waters is hit-or-miss imo.  Waters loved singing above his register, I think, and that doesn't help matters.  I think man for man, VDGG had the better musicians in terms of technical skill, leaving aside that they didn't have a specialist guitarist, but I remember their sound well rather than their compositions which are rather rambling affairs to my ears. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 19:44
PF for me. Nuff said. I like VDGG as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 19:49
Graaf were fun. They had some complexity and strong composition. Floyd were limited to the slower paced mellow stuff. Graaf for sure. floyd just got a bit boring in the mid 70s. Dark side and Wish you were here have 15-20 minutes each of boringish compositions
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 20:19
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by -Radioswim- -Radioswim- wrote:

Originally posted by geogkrt geogkrt wrote:

Pink Floyd is mostly pretty boring. Van Der Graaf Generator wins.

Well I do really like Wish You Were Here and Animals, but the other albums range from mediocre to...well mediocre. They haven't made anything particularly bad, I just find them bland. And I don't think Dark Side of the Moon is anything special, either.

I wouldn't consider them medicre, but I still to this day (and probably never will) understand Pink Floyd's absolutely massive commercial appeal.

VDGG is the clear winner for me though.

Guys, I'd like to make you aware of the fact that the Barret's Floyds are recognized to have influenced VdGG. The big difference is that VdGG, King Crimson and few others have been the first in detaching from the Summer of Love and the flower power optimism to dig into darker environments, 

But when I read about "commercial appeal" and "boring" I think you have listened to PF starting only from The Final Cut.
Is "Echoes" a mediocre song? Is "Interstellar Overdrive" or "Atom Earth Mother" commercial? 

My impression is that you are using the same approach of Johhny Rotten.

I would never consider Echoes a mediocre song, nor would I consider it commercial but from my own experiances is somehow still marketable in the mainstream of music, hell Echoes was a feature on one of pink floyd's best selling compilation records... entitled "Echoes" go figure.

I realize a few of my friends don't represent the mainstream of music, but they certainley seem to emulate atleast a small demographic of floyd/pop-rock fans. Said friends, enjoy songs such as Echoes, but wouldn't know what progressive rock is even after I've explained and demonstrated what it is to them.

On another note, I feel like this has simply become a popularity contest...

oh and by the way, I own every single Pink Floyd studio album up to and including Division bell, and I love them.


Edited by -Radioswim- - June 22 2012 at 20:24

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 20:40
Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:

LOL Fascinating to witness a frustrated writer who's started up his own blog (as if that weren't a cliche) in his mom's basement, for a reading audience of eight, exert his 'musical knowledge' when his nose is bent out of shape!
 
Speaking of cliché, the last refuge of the the wretched internet masterdebater is to use the hackneyed "mother's basement" line when his/her/its banal arguments are no longer cogent or even valid. That was a real knee-slapper back when PCs ran on DOS.
 
Tell me again (for the hundredth time) of that one glorious moment back in the bowels of the 1970s when VdGG actually appeared on a magazine cover (must've been a surgeon's periodical because I believe you said it concerned "hip replacements"). What is truly fascinating is that in every discussion concerning VdGG you trot out the same dead horse factoids once destined for the glue factory, but you keep ressurrecting their moldering carcasses in the vain effort to somehow prove that  VdGG was not just another middling band that imploded because no one gave a damn for them, Except, of course, in Italy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2012 at 22:19
Originally posted by -Radioswim- -Radioswim- wrote:


I would never consider Echoes a mediocre song, nor would I consider it commercial but from my own experiances is somehow still marketable in the mainstream of music, hell Echoes was a feature on one of pink floyd's best selling compilation records... entitled "Echoes" go figure.


Echoes is marketable in spite of its length because it is genius.  Yes, that necessarily means I am saying VDGG is not genius.  A very good band, certainly, but I cannot hear any genius in their compositions...of course, that's just my opinion (then again, I don't know of a factual way to determine genius in music, so it's self evident).   First Beatles and then Floyd grasped much better than many other bands what the role of household or everyday sounds in the environment could be in music.  Not only VDGG, but even Genesis or Yes for that matter were slow to grasp the importance of this; it just helps communicate music in a language people understand.  These sounds establish a context effectively rather than expecting a listener to patiently put together the mathematical relation between notes and then appreciating it in a roundabout way.  Fripp's work with the Wetton lineup also suggests that he had begun to emphasise texture in music and maybe his disapproval of contemporaneous directions in rock stemmed from a feeling that they were still doing it the 'old way'.   Maybe, I don't know, that is just conjecture. 

At any rate, relating everyday sounds to music without sounding awkward is easier said than done and that is why there are still only very few bands that do it well and mostly they succeed in winning acclaim and recognition.   That is what Radiohead also did and once again, people that are too busy looking for notes rather than taking in the sounds don't get them; er, don't get why Dream Theater aren't so popular in spite of their uber talent and all that.        
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2012 at 02:26
I like and respect VDGG but they can be obtuse at times, Floyd's pop tunes keep them on track more of the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2012 at 02:36
Floyd, 
+better idears, evolve more, sound a lot better, more fun.
- from WYWH they stagnate even tough they do it on a pretty good level.
 
VDGG
+ More experimental instrumentation
- They dont seem to evolve much.
 
My Vote Floyd


Edited by tamijo - June 23 2012 at 02:36
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2012 at 03:06
Floyd. VdGG has a nice groove sometimes, but I don't find a lot they do that's truly interesting, except playing two saxes at once.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2012 at 08:49
Waters or Hammill lyrically? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2012 at 10:45
Originally posted by Gandalff Gandalff wrote:

  • Pink Floyd had much memorable melodies, how many VdGG's ones anyone can able to sing?


43 songs (including many more melodies, of course). I just checked.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2012 at 11:22
Originally posted by yanch yanch wrote:

Pink Floyd. In know VdGG is very popular and well respected, but they just don't do it for me.

Much the same for me. I
Animals is one of my top 10 albums/ desert island discs but despite several goes over many years vdgg have just never clicked.
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