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Topic ClosedDo you think John Bonham is overrated?
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 00:34
You brought it up-- and there was nothing humorous in the tone or language of the thread you started, in fact you attack and eviscerate him using terms like "boring" and "doesn't seem to care". It is vital to be clear - linguistcally clear - about what exactly your intention is. That includes qualification, i.e. showing some manners not only to the artist you criticize but to their fans who might read your post.
    

Edited by Atavachron - October 24 2006 at 00:36
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by zappaholic zappaholic wrote:

Bonham was certainly not the most imaginative drummer in the world, but he was a rock-steady timekeeper.  He kept Zeppelin's sound anchored.
 
Bonham did play a key role in keeping Led Zeppelin's music steady. My brother is a great guitarist but without a steady beat he is unable to stay in time.
 
I do not think Bonham's overrated. It is hard to compare him to other drummers because we only have 12 years of his drumming to listen to, whereas Neil Peart has been drumming for about 30 years. Bonham is high on the list, for me, for good drummers with Neil Peart (obviously) and Ginger Baker.


Edited by progismylife - October 24 2006 at 06:36
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Points: 366 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:36
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

Seriously, I think John Bonham is a wildly overrated drummer.  I really don't think he's that great. 
Anyway, this is the main reason I don't like John Bonham's drumming: I think it's boring.  He often plays the same simple beats over and over again with little or (more often) no variation.  He seems to use one of the most simple rock beats ever (1 and 3 on bass drum, 2 and 4 on snare, eighth notes on hi-hat) a lot in the music.  Also, he doesn't seem to care about the phrasing of the music.  At the end of phrases, he often just plays time, when the music screams for a fill to fill in the empty space.  He doesn't play many fills at all.  I also find that his fills are often boring, which isn't helped when he plays the exact same fill again in the song.  When I listen to him drumming I often get the impression that he his playing off of a chart.
 
Does anyone agree? 
 
i agree.
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andu View Drop Down
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:38
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife.  Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it."  Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility.Wink)
 
ok, so it's the wife. i trust you.
what i meant was that he kept the "improvisation" exactly the same the whole decade. and belive me, cause i've listened to looots of bootlegs. the only period when you can call it "improvisation" was when it wasn't yet recorded and released and had a different name, "pat's delight" (btw, pat's the wife). one could even say it's a different song. at least the two 1969 pre-ZeppII i heard were very little related to the final version.
there's no credibility issue here Wink.
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:16
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife.  Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it."  Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility.[IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>)

 

ok, so it's the wife. i trust you.

what i meant was that he kept the "improvisation" exactly the same the whole decade. and belive me, cause i've listened to looots of bootlegs. the only period when you can call it "improvisation" was when it wasn't yet recorded and released and had a different name, "pat's delight" (btw, pat's the wife). one could even say it's a different song. at least the two 1969 pre-ZeppII i heard were very little related to the final version.

there's no credibility issue here [IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>.


I think there is a HUGE credibility issue here- and it's terribly ironic that Bonham's widow is being held up as evidence in the author's ridiculous and embarrassing attack.
    
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:39
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

You brought it up-- and there was nothing humorous in the tone or language of the thread you started, in fact you attack and eviscerate him using terms like "boring" and "doesn't seem to care". It is vital to be clear - linguistcally clear - about what exactly your intention is. That includes qualification, i.e. showing some manners not only to the artist you criticize but to their fans who might read your post.
    
 
Drawing conclusions from the wording of my posts is pretty silly.  A million different people could interpret my wording to mean a million different things, not to mention that I most certainly did not pick the wording of my post to express what I thought.  My posts aren't poems-I just write the first thing that comes to mind, so you shouldn't be analyzing my diction.
 
Second off, why are you saying I am "attacking" the band and its fans?  I have my opinion, you may not like it but don't be so sensitive.  Like OpethGuitarist said in this thread:  When someone says they don't like a band like Led Zeppelin, people take it as a personal insult.  Have you thought that I may feel that my opinion is being attacked by the harsh words people are aiming at me for my dislike of Led Zeppelin and John Bonham? (I don't feel attacked at all, by the way, but I could if I overreacted).  Please, just because we don't agree doesn't mean I'm attacking your views.  Just please stopping ripping on me for my opinion.  Remember, I never made this thread personal, as I never said I didn't like fans of John Bonham.  It was those who critisized me who started to rip on me personally by accusing me of hurting their feeling, rather than just defending Bonham.
 
Well that's how I see it.Confused
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:51
Fair enough, and I respect your honest appeal, but remember that words are all we have here- it's up to each of us to be clear about what we truly mean.
    

Edited by Atavachron - October 24 2006 at 16:51
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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 06:01
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Just found this on a Peter Erskine (respected jazz drummer -- Weather Report, Steps Ahead, etc) forum. A fan had asked Erskine what he thought of Bonham as a drummer. Erskine responded:
 
   By Peter Erskine on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:26 am: Edit Post

Francesco,

Thank you for your message, and greetings from the Steps Ahead tour (now in Catania, Sicily), we are looking forward to our concert in Lucca.

To be honest, while I appreciate the great and innovative and powerful drumming of John Bonham, I was never that much of a listener to or fan of Led Zeppelin ... so I do not have so much to say or offer in regards to his drumming, except to say that if you like it, then good! I know that his drumming legacy has inspired many drummers ...

Best wishes,
Peter Erskine




An (overly?) polite way of saying he doesn't like Bonham.

BTW, I'm not so sure Bruford likes Bonham. He doesn't hide his dislike of many drummers,  like Keith Moon, for example ("He just hit stuff").

Personally I like Bonham, but he's far from being my fav.
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:29

Yes, that's exactly how I interpreted the letter.
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:37
Though it may seem like Erskine was 'just being nice', if you really read the letter, the language he uses to describe Bonham is very specific and rather impressive, especially from someone who is not a Zep fan. Sounds like genuine praise rather than hollow flattery.   
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andu View Drop Down
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:44
to me erskine's words say that he appreciated bonham's skills though he didn't like zeppelin, but he is saying this as gentle as possible. and it's actually normal for a jazz player and composer to dislike anything that's not jazz or classical (or even what's not jazz, sometimes), but to be able to appreciate one's performance on a specific instrument, out of it's context - even though this type of judgement is inadequate for rock.
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2006 at 16:49

Look again.  He never said anything about Bonham's skill, he just said he knows that Bonham has influenced a lot of drummers.  If he was impressed with Bonham's skill, I'm sure he would have said so.   

Also, classical and jazz players often look down on rock musicians because of all the the flashy excesses of rock.  I'm sure jazz and classical musicians feel that many rock musicians don't even know how to play their instruments correctly, with drummers using their entire arm to play the instrument, thrashing around at random drums and cymbals, and have a death grip on their sticks with no room for rebound, all of which are horrible technique.  And guitarists and bassists playing their instuments down at their thighs.  Again, that's horrible technique, the only reason they can get away with that is that they don't have too many techniquely demanding things to play.  I'm sure it cracks jazz musicians up.
 
Of course little of what I said above applies to prog.Big smile
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