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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 08:24
Speaking of which, the anti-capitalist amendment was passed by the Green Party's national committee! http://gp.org/cgi-bin/vote/propresult?pid=835
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 08:34
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

I do not feel too lonely actually, there are many like me. If you realize all the things you have, from the clothes you wear and the food you eat to the education you receive, are only possible through the collective effort of your peers and all those who came before them, how then can you justify taking from them the fruit of their labor and the resources of the land for your own private profit? It is very silly. For every person who is successful and makes 100 million dollars, there are a million people who made that possible who only get 100 dollars.

I disagree completely but keeping aside my views this sounds like communism, not even just left/socialism, because you are talking about taking away the concept of private ownership.  I would not be surprised to see some form of communism get revived around a hundred years or so since its original take-off in the last century.  Based on what the communists did to Calcutta, I do not have a very high opinion of it but then the capitalists deserve this for sucking up to politicians and manipulating the law which is very far from the spirit of 'pure capitalism' that Friedman & Co peddled in the 70s.

Not to get into the differences of socialism and communism, but all schools of left-wing/socialist thought depend on the abolition of private ownership. The most basic and most simplified definition of socialism is the common ownership of the means of production. That is diametrically opposed to capitalism, which depends on private ownership. That is why there is no such thing as a "mix" between the two. You cannot both be for private ownership and public ownership. Social democracy is a form of liberalism, and as such is a right wing ideology.

I am aware of that theoretical distinction but I am not sympathetic to theory because paper ideology, sorry to be blunt, is only cheap talk.  In practice, even countries which were governed by parties that identified themselves as communist, like Russia and China, did not go the whole hog to fulfill the strict definition of communism and instead stopped with nationalised control of means of production.  Good thing, because workers didn't have to directly bear the losses from the inefficient Russian state.  That aside, even countries with stronger govt intervention (vis a vis USA or UK) like France haven't gone the whole hog with completely abolishing private ownership of means of ownership.  And you absolutely can have both private and public ownership if you are not beholden to ideological dogma.  To say social democracy is a right wing ideology is as far fetched as the view held by libertarians that America has not been a capitalist nation for a long time (long time meaning not since the advent of Progressivism in the early twentieth century).  When you start redistributing income in some form or the other, you are already leaning left.  The question is only of how leftist.   The mixed economy/welfare state compromise of the post WWII years was an excellent one. Too bad the OPEC spike gave an opportunity for Friedman & Co to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 10:05
50 dead in a mass shooting here in FL. 

Hopefully this will not help Trump (if it's proven that the shooter is linked to jihadist terrorism)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 10:51
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

50 dead in a mass shooting here in FL. 

Hopefully this will not help Trump (if it's proven that the shooter is linked to jihadist terrorism)


My thoughts exactlyCry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 10:56
Raff was just wondering the same thing. Not surprised. Again.. I think you sort of have to be here to experience it.

Did it really make a difference Teo who did it.  I will say for the umpteeth time...

20 children..

let me emphasise that...

20 children...


tragic is this is... I think this nation expects these things to happen.  If 20 children...umm.. let me reiterate that

20 beautiful innocent children..

could not move this country to deal with its internal problems regarding gun violence.. this will not either. Oh sure the immigrant/foreigner/muslim haters that is his core will hate even more. Most will say... what can you do.  It is the reality we live under.. and have for.. god has it been THAT long... 15 years now.

It is the reality of life.. and the only way to combat it is to become a police state. A fascist nation. No one wants that and gun violence.. domestic terrorism is the price we will have to pay for it.

Help him? Nah...  plus from what we have seen of Trump... do you really think he's smart enough to exploit this (and he will try) without reminding people why he is completely unsuited, both in temperment and in the reality of the world to do so without alienating still more voters. I doubt it.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:12
It's going to be probably more a hate crime against LGBT. 

The same hate that the Republicans and Trumpists and Fox News encourage. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:14
Right out the gate you want to demonize Trump as if he pulled the trigger. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:23
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Right out the gate you want to demonize Trump as if he pulled the trigger. 


LOL  Let it not be say we are not fair here...  I'll eat my hat is this guy was wearing a 'Make America great' button on his jacket....

I'll give up my paycheck and donate it to Trump if wrong. But I'd take the bet that this guy was not a registered Republican.

Though I do remember the day of the Murrah Bulding bombing (like one could ever forget that Cry)... it was made clear to all the muslim/middle eastern students to NOT leave home or the campus and stay indoors. I saw with my own eyes picktrucks full of good ol' boys carrying guns hitting the road looking for the 'middle eastrner' said  (immediately afterwards) to have done it.

It is early...  I guess the guy was an Afghan immigrant..  I don't think the target a coincidence. Perhaps he made it a point to wage his private war against America by striking out against sinners and god-forsaken... or perhaps he was gay himself, not even a practicing Muslim, and just hit back.. for whatever reason. What reason did any of those mass shooters. Look at the list of worst mass shootings here.  Only 2 of the 30 I counted were 'foreigners'.


Edited by micky - June 12 2016 at 11:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:27
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Right out the gate you want to demonize Trump as if he pulled the trigger. 
No. But the mindset of racism and bigotry of most of his supporters breeds hate and hate breeds murder.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:35
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Right out the gate you want to demonize Trump as if he pulled the trigger. 
No. But the mindset of racism and bigotry of most of his supporters breeds hate and hate breeds murder.


very true... but fair being fair..  I don't think Trump's rhetoric had much to do with this. Though yes, it was my first thought.

It is a war out there... the right wing crazies are armed, off their f**king rockers, and having their hate fueled by self serving politicans. Be it government buildings, black churches, abortion clinics, or gay clubs. They have been targets.. they will targets still to come as we wake up and read of the latest mass shooting...

Was it applicable here...  I tend not to think so but it may not be too early for the press to jump to conclusions.. but it is for us.


Edited by micky - June 12 2016 at 11:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:39
^I never blame Trump of anything actually. He's not a cause. He's a symptom.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:42
oh no.... symptom?  Symptom of what?

Racism... intolerance.  Come on man.. America has written the book on that from day 1.

When politicians throw gasoline on a fire that many have tired to to fight... they cross the line from being a symptom.. to a cause.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:49
America did not invent racism and intolerance. Religious fanaticism has been around a long long time.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 11:56
Confused who said anything about inventing it... our young nation was just getting started on the shining path to WASP glory..  when other enlightened societies were going secular.. and eliminating slavery.

We didn't invent it... we just wrote the book on the subject out of hundreds of years of experience.




Edited by micky - June 12 2016 at 11:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 12:02
Enlightened societies? Not on this planet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 12:06
I feel I am being sucked into a black hole of trying to reason with you Tim.

so lets paint with a big ass brush here.... enlightened in that realizing just because you are black... latino... gay.. muslim....whatever.. that makes not make you inferior. Any less a citizen of this country.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 12:11
I am not some dream theater fanboy you can badger just name me one enlightened society on the planet. Not looking for reason. Just want the name of this enlightened society you speak of.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 12:14
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

I feel I am being sucked into a black hole of trying to reason with you Tim.

so lets paint with a big ass brush here.... enlightened in that realizing just because you are black... latino... gay.. muslim....whatever.. that makes not make you inferior. Any less a citizen of this country.

In that case I don't know of any countries capable of claiming enlightenment. There has been tons of racism, sexism, religious bigotry, etc. ever since every country that still exists was formed, and continues to this day. Western societies shouldn't pat themselves on the back for being slightly less oppressive than other places just yet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 16:01
Very sad news from Orlando. 


Best to the families and loved ones involved. 


Hate to bring it up since it's politicizing the tragedy but well, guess everyone does.
This will give Trump, at least temporarily, a boost. 



Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^I never blame Trump of anything actually. He's not a cause. He's a symptom.

True, he's just using what is out there. Every few years when we have an immigration debate, or when there's a terrorist attack (or simply a vile act done by a muslim) this stuff comes out in full, ugly force. It certainly goes way before Trump and it happens all over the world. 

It's what has helped give rise to the various racist, right wing populists all over Europe who used to be dormant and fringe. Seems people are reactionary everywhereCry add difficult times to the mix, and we all know what happens

Trump is disgusting for using it and even fanning it, but indeed he's a symptom as you put it. The ugly growth that pops up after there's been some bad stuff brewing below the skin for a long time.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2016 at 16:40
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

@ Brian.  Yes... I do hope she is as smart as I think she is.  She is building a signficant power base in the Senate. Personally I think she'd be a fool to accept it, if (big if) she was offered it. Hillary IS as smart as I give her credit for.  I don't think she'd offer it to her.  For many reasons IMO.

Now Warren.  She plays her cards right she walks to the Presidency when Hillary has cleared out.  She'll unite both wings of the Democratic party the way Bernie could not. 

In fact it brings up an interesting discussion we were having at work the other day.  Something I brought up much earlier in the thread. We survived the Reagan Revolution and the moving to the right of this country.  Perhaps what has the right in such disaray and in no small amounts of panic (thus the ever increasing vitriol) as they see, as some of us do, that a counter movement is underway. A revolution in sorts . that this country is moving to the left. We have seen it socially, now under the right figure, it could economically. 

I think it will be Warren. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years.. you all will be talking about the Warren Revolution. I think she has the potential to be that trasnsendenal.  Read this.. read this carefully.. this is the stuff of Kennedy. 

'There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. ... You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless. Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

Well anyone who thinks Clinton isn't smart is truly a damned fool themselves. 
I never had any doubt about that. Her....I'll say: divisive... campaign, the comments of surrogates, really every step she takes, comment made, action taken is planned and calculated and is very aware of everything she does. 

God I hope. I hope it doesn't even require 20-30 years. The Ron Paul revolution has made monumental progress (fringe, most people never even heard of him, limited gov was mocked even in the GOP, to now his creation has taken total control of the party) in under 8 years. 
It's not like Bernie and Warren are solo loons either. The CPC has existed for ages and have always had like 40-50ish members, so the seeds have been there. And many people are very ready for sincere change. 

BTW this hasn't made any major but a huge amount of ballots in California have not actually been counted yet. There are boxes upon boxes sitting around and this isn't conspiracy...the CA Sect of State noted 3 counties have since flipped to Sanders. 
Not that he'll win the state, or even if he did somehow it would've made no difference but yeah...yet again there are tons (2.5 million I read) of votes not counted and most have no idea, the few who do brush it aside because lol who cares about the right to vote? Smile
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