UK Politics

I used to not believe "the death of liberalism" theory...but I'm beginning too.
Seems pretty much the world, (at least those very few of the world in charge) have turned from it and a system set up where really, it cant be done.
Greece is an example.

Either that or 'liberal' is not that left in reality and Im just way out there

This is true.

I've been keeping track of it, David.

Last time I looked, Diane Abbott was actually beating Ed Balls and wasn't far behind Andy Burnham.

But yes, it's between David and Ed Millband and unfortunately, the former is in the lead.  Not that I like either of them that much but Ed is the better of the two, as he's more in touch with the Unions and is more of a Brownite.


Edited by James - August 23 2010 at 08:47

Trouserpress wrote: Clegg confirms what we already knew. I can't believe I supported this opportunistic, ideologically bereft sham of a politician during the election. Never again. Unless Labour elect a leader prepared to stand up to the right wing zealots attempting to dismantle our society to please a handful of multi-millionaires, someone with the courage to renounce their party's abhorrent past and lead them away from authoritarian attacks on civil liberties, unwinnable military conflicts and damaging micro-management and target-setting culture in the public sector then, quite frankly, I'm through with politics.

What Labour need to realise is that there is a huge realignment of British politics going on here, and I think that it will end up in England, at least, with two main political parties a la Democrats & Republicans, with the Lib Dem Orange people such as Clegg joining a centre right Tory party. Cameron would dearly love to get rid of the nutters in his party as did Labour with the Trots a few years back, and Clegg and his pals are a way of acheiving this.

Your analysis of Labour's needs is spot on. In fact, these weaknesses are what made me join Plaid Cymru in Wales. Labour has to realise that the type of statist response in terms of civil liberties, the public sector, where I work, and all manner of things, has had its day. Above all else, Labour needs to realise that it was actually the left wing/labour movement which were the original libertarians in our country, not the barking mad right wing.

Finnforest wrote: What I don't understand, as an outsider, is why didn't this Clegg dude join with Labor if there is realignment going on.  Why wouldn't they choose to join labor to fight the conservatives, as opposed to helping the conservatives?

Clegg wanted power. Labour had been in government since 1997, with their popularity waning year on year. After Blair left and Gordon Brown was 'installed' as our new Prime Minister (no election, not even an internal leadership election within the party), Labour's support dwindled to the point where an election victory was extremely unlikely. Many had always assumed the Lib Dems had more in common with Labour on an ideological level, but Clegg had no interest in joining forces with an unpopular party and an almost universally disliked leader.

Finnforest wrote: Then again, Cameron doesn't seem all that "right-wing", at least compared to Republicans.  I think Cameron would be a Democrat in the US.

He is a moderate within his party, and this has certainly been the key to his success, but he is a long long way from being a left-leaning politician. His economic agenda and stance on the role of the state is vehemently right wing.

Finnforest wrote: Perhaps the real story in the UK is that there is no real Right?  (Aside from a handful of purists here and there)  In all three of your main parties, are they not simply "shades of Left?"

Actually, the trouble seems to be that there is no real LEFT within the three main parties. During Labour's 13 years in power they quickly turned away from traditional left wing politics in favour of a staunchly centrist and, eventually, centre-right ideology. Meanwhile, after a string of shortlived and unsuccessful leaders, the Conservatives under David Cameron successfully moved towards occupying more or less identical territory. This is what led to many left-leaning voters (and one or two MPs) defecting to the Lib Dems, a party who had opposed the Iraq invasion and had generally played up their role as a left-leaning voice of dissent. Now, following Clegg's decision to unite with the Conservatives and abandon these leftist values Britain is left with a centre-right coalition government and a currently leaderless opposition party (Labour). Whether or not Labour return to their leftist roots or continue down this course of moderate, middle-ground, middle class mediocrity will depend on who they elect as their new leader. I'm not feeling very optimistic.

Interesting indeed.  Thanks Trouser for the lesson! 

But if there is no real Left, how is it that you have such a generous welfare state?  Doesn't the UK accessibility to Health/Education/Welfare assistance rival that of Scandinavian social democracies?

Wouldn't that be nearly impossible without a healthy (and "real") Leftist share in your government?


Edited by Finnforest - September 18 2010 at 09:37

So, fair to say that you have a population very comfortable with the generous social systems, but a political class who are contemptuous of this (to varying degrees) and insistent that the degree of Gov. social expenditure cannot be sustained, due to population/aging dynamics (too few babies, too many oldsters)?

They want to "reform" the system to be more lean, while the public rejects this?   It would seem a ripe recipe for the emergence of a true Leftist.   Don't you have a Green Party?   In the US the Greens represent the most fervent Left. 

UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters.

Dean wrote: UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters.

Oooh, please expand on this.  As a former US Green, what is it about the UK Greens that makes you say that.  I'm curious why the party I know from here is not wildly more popular in Europe, they seem to embody the progressive values I hear are desired by many of you.  So I'm curious about the bolded.

Finnforest wrote: Dean wrote: UK parties are left when compared to the two US parties, though obviously not as left as David, Steve and myself would be happy with. Greens in this country are left-ish, but have some weird and incompatible ideas on science, technology and manufacturing that makes them unattractive to most voters. Oooh, please expand on this.  As a former US Green, what is it about the UK Greens that makes you say that.  I'm curious why the party I know from here is not wildly more popular in Europe, they seem to embody the progressive values I hear are desired by many of you.  So I'm curious about the bolded.

I've flirted with voting green in the past but there are definite barriers. For example, whilst perusing their manifesto during the last European elections I noticed a proposal to ban all zoos. Now, as a committed vegetarian, ardent animal lover and advocate of animal welfare I'd be the first to recognise the cruelty of keeping animals in captivity, especially in unsuitable climates and conditions. This could be addressed through tighter regulation, and the EU is the perfect body to shape such legislation. But to simply call for a blanket ban shows a total naivety, and fails to acknowledge the important roles zoos play in conservation and education.

Similarly unscientific and blinkered policies on GM foods, homepathic/alternative medicine and the like detract substantially from their often excellent environmental and social policies.

The other major barrier for a lot of would-be voters is our electoral system, which makes it almost impossible for a minority candidate to gain power.