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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
Posted: May 28 2009 at 11:12
lucas wrote:
^
I cannot agree more about the French. This is mainly due to their colonialist past, they still think they can speak french in each part of the world and therefore don't make any effort to learn english.
Actually, in pop psychology terms, the diagnosis is more that they refuse to believe that their present position in the world does not match up to a long ago glorious past. De Gaulle could not tolerate the idea that France was liberated by Canadians , Americans, and GASP , englishmen. The brits went through the same thing in between the wars. They just got bitch slapped into reality with WWII and were smart enough to give independance to most of the still existing colonies that wanted it. The French on the other hand, fought tooth & nail for every last one. Including the ones they gave up as undefendable in WWII. And as a francophone Acadian descendants of long ago immigrants from France, this tendency exists mainly as a form of inferiority complex cover-up. The Quebecois have much to be proud of, but insists on repeating past offenses against them. The French also have much to be proud of, but cannot stand the idea that culture and refinement , in any form, exists on an equal and often superior basis elsewhere, including the U.S. ( I write as I fart loudly)
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
Joined: March 07 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 380
Posted: May 28 2009 at 11:30
Though it's a bit off the topic, people interested in listening German music with German lyrics should have a look at the "Liedermacher" movement (Reinhard Mey, Klaus Hoffmann Hans Dieter Hüsch, Konstantin Wecker, to name a few) or folk rock/medieval rock groups (In Extremo, Schandmaul, Schelmisch, Corvus Corax, Subway to Sally) as well as some "Deutschrock/pop" (Stoppok, Udo Lindenberg, Silbermond). If one can bear pure but amusing stupidity, there is die Ärzte for you.*
To sum it up from the point of a German: One reason was the internetional orientation of some groups, other was that English was considered to be the language of the free in times of division. Those who wrote German lyrics mostly described and criticised political or social topics of their country. These days, it is mostly trivial with political lyrics being left to the underground scene.
* 'cause, there is always a Rammstein. And Kraftwerk.
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20252
Posted: May 28 2009 at 11:44
NotAProghead wrote:
Don't forget there were 2 countries - West and East Germany (DDR).
And most of bands from DDR (Puhdys, Karat, Lift, Stern Combo Meissen, City, Electra etc) sung in German.
Doing otherwise (except maybe in Russian) in Ossie Germany would drive you direct to the goulag, courtesy of the stasi
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
debrewguy wrote:
NotAProghead wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
remember, troops hardly listen Prog
no need to generalize just because they're soldiers.
Please Claude not hgeneralizing, here in prog Archives we have ex soldiers, marines, etc, but it's not the general rule, troops are recruited from the general population and general population doesn't listen Prog, as a majority.
Please don't try to imply a discrimination that doesn't exist, this is the last place where I expected people asking to talk in politically correct terms.
Iván
Ivàn,
Back in the 60's , this was not a professional army by volunteers; this was mainly draft enroled and military duty, so the kids in the army were coming from all classes of society (which is one of the only good thing about military duty >> a little social mixity), only a few lucky being able to dodge the drafts. Most dads in higher classes were happy to see their kids get a little tougher in life and did nothing tfor their son to avoid rough soldier lives.
Actually a lot of smarter kids opted to their military services in Germany (the miserable pay was less miserable) because of a shorter service (15 months instead of 2 years in France and 10 moths instead of 15 in Belgium, for example)
the troops in Vietnam listened to plenty of proto prog >> you know those long-haired hippies that generally supposed to be hated by the soldiers (at least their hierarchy,because of their irreverence and anarchy ideals) , but most kids stuck in the army (against their will) admired the hippies' freedom........
no, my friend; the soldiers listened to rock, beit pop, garage, psych, prog .... whayever was dished out at them and they liked it. The louder the better, since they could evade the cold war for a few hours.....
Anyway, I think we can drop the prog specificity when speaking about mainstream rin the early 70's beit radio or availability in record store , since prog was almost the mainstream
Groups like Frumpy were opening for Uriah Heep in Hamburg in 74, with a good half of the crod being US or UK soldiers or their dorect family. Their (Frumpy's) chances of playing the US was hardly nil back then..... So, they worried about selling their music in Germany to whomever would buy them.
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: May 28 2009 at 11:54
Still I believe it was acommercial issue Sean,
As you say the troops were recruited from the general population, if we takee kids from all economic and cultural status, the minority will go to see a Triumvirat or Amon Dull concert, than Uriah Heep, which was mainly a Hard Rock band for them.
BTW: The troops in Nam were not the troops in Germany, Nam soldiers were allowed to do things, dress and act in a totally different way than the ones representing USA in an ally country.
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20252
Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:07
debrewguy wrote:
lucas wrote:
^
I cannot agree more about the French. This is mainly due to their colonialist past, they still think they can speak french in each part of the world and therefore don't make any effort to learn english.
Actually, in pop psychology terms, the diagnosis is more that they refuse to believe that their present position in the world does not match up to a long ago glorious past. De Gaulle could not tolerate the idea that France was liberated by Canadians , Americans, and GASP , englishmen. The brits went through the same thing in between the wars. They just got bitch slapped into reality with WWII and were smart enough to give independance to most of the still existing colonies that wanted it. The French on the other hand, fought tooth & nail for every last one. Including the ones they gave up as undefendable in WWII. And as a francophone Acadian descendants of long ago immigrants from France, this tendency exists mainly as a form of inferiority complex cover-up. The Quebecois have much to be proud of, but insists on repeating past offenses against them. The French also have much to be proud of, but cannot stand the idea that culture and refinement , in any form, exists on an equal and often superior basis elsewhere, including the U.S. ( I write as I fart loudly)
Interesting post.
It's true that the British did not fight over India much since amazingly enough there were so few Briish subject controlling sooooooo many Indians..... they got out VERY quickly (if memory serves in 47 or 48) , knowing it would e a massacre if they didn't. >>> letting loose Newfoundland in 49, right?? They didn't leave quietly everywhere, and hunkg out to empire bits until the mid-60's for big colonies and sometimes as late as the late 70's for islands.....
The French did not face the same urgency and started running into trouble in Vietnam (from China's communist support) in 54 and got defeated in 62 , from which time the US took over with nthe same results...... In the meantime (in 56 to be exact) their main worries was Algeria,which they considered as almost metropolitan France and let loose in 62, but in the meantime both Tunisia and Morrocco had become independant without much a problem.
France sort of abandonned Vietnam to concentrate on another losing cause called Algeria.
By 65 most of Freench Africa was independant without any violence (which was not the case in Kenia or Rhodesia >> today's Zimbabwe)
On the whole I would say that the British lost their bigger colonies quicker than the French, but still clung on to place like Gibraltar illegally, the country faring worst in this derptament being Portugal that kept all its bigger colonies until the early 70's (Mozambique, Angola etc....)
But I hold you on your last statement, France is able to recognize other people's cultures at being as brillliant as theirs (except for food and luxury) >>> they holdin hign admiration England, Italt and a few more..... They do have a little difficulty with the US , though. But they are no more chauvinists than Italians, Americans of English
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20252
Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:14
NotAProghead wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
NotAProghead wrote:
Don't forget there were 2 countries - West and East Germany (DDR).
And most of bands from DDR (Puhdys, Karat, Lift, Stern Combo Meissen, City, Electra etc) sung in German.
Doing otherwise (except maybe in Russian) in Ossie Germany would drive you direct to the goulag, courtesy of the stasi
Hardly too far (I mean Goulag), but doing otherwise they definitely could have problems.
So courtesy of Stasi we have quite special rock movement .
By the way, some bands from East Germany had albums in English.
Iguess what you sing was also an issue
Plastic People Of The Universe spent years in jail and they sang in Czeck
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20252
Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:19
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Still I believe it was acommercial issue Sean,
As you say the troops were recruited from the general population, if we takee kids from all economic and cultural status, the minority will go to see a Triumvirat or Amon Dull concert, than Uriah Heep, which was mainly a Hard Rock band for them.
BTW: The troops in Nam were not the troops in Germany, Nam soldiers were allowed to do things, dress and act in a totally different way than the ones representing USA in an ally country.
Guess we should agree to dissagree as usual.
Iván
OK with this.....
But I think tha ADII will not draw the same public than Triumvirate, one of the only German band with the Scorpions) that did break the US open (much to Triumvirate's surprise too).
ADII was undefined rock crowds, where Triumvirate had a more select public (different eras too >>> ADII's best moments had passed when Trioùvirate started to happen)
Must run home now
let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:26
Rocktopus wrote:
Dean wrote:
I don't actually disagree with you - when your home country is essentially selfsufficent then there is little need to be outward-looking.
While you think using terms like ignorant and sceptical are lazy generalizations (which I wrote that it was) about your fellow countrymen, I think your attitude towards music (not just prog) made in the rest of the world is lazy. I'm not saying everyone elsewhere is so fantastically openminded, and of course as a norwegian sharing a language with only 4 million people one's got to be outwardlooking. We're used to importing popularculture, while in UK, an album or single in any other language than british has hardly ever charted (except some novelty hits).
I assume by "your" you mean the whole country and not just me personally
Anyway, I think you are being a little unfair - how many German artists chart in France, or Spanish artists in Sweden? I do not believe it is nationalism, or xenophobia, or "ignorance" that causes the British (and American, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand) charts to be devoid of foreign language songs, nor is it a sign of being close-minded. When something like 14% of the people living in the UK have English as a second language then statistically there should be more non-English titles in the charts, the reality has little to do any ignorance on the part of the buying public, in the UK or anywhere else, but is a reflection on current world-wide music trends.
Rocktopus wrote:
When people here write that they can't appreciate vocals in any other language than their own, I've never seen it written by people from anywhere else than UK or US. Same thing when some americans take it for granted that Boston, Styx and Billy Joel, Heart etc.. were played to death on radio in the 70's all over the world, just because its their personal experience. Things like that. I can't think of it as anything but ignorant.
When (a very very small minority of) people here write that they can't appreciate vocals in any other language than their own everyone else (generally) points out the error of their ways and tries to encourage them to at least listen and learn to appreciate. Look at those threads (and not just the latest one) - not many people are agreeing with with the opening comments.
I prefer L'isola di niente sung in Italian but I am happy with Felona e Sorona sung in Italian or English - that's just my personal preference and little to do with prejudice or inability to speak (or understand) Italian.
As to the American view of the world - I can't comment on that since I was with you in that Boston/Styx/Joel/Heart thread and expressed the same level of disbelief. However since I am fully aware of the insult implied by using the word "ignorant" I would not call them ignorant, wrong yes, ignorant no.
Rocktopus wrote:
I'm sorry but if I'm not allowed to generalize, its hard to point out any kind ofobservation.
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:43
A lot of artists of early Krautrock used German as well as English,
examples being Guru Guru, Amon Düül 2 or Kraan. Tracks like "Sarah's
Ritt durch den Schwarzwald" by Kraan, "Henriette Krötenschwanz" or
"Kronwinkl 23" by Amon Düül 2 and "Tango Fango" by Guru Guru may serve as
examples. The first one to only use German as a language in German rock music was singer Udo Lindenberg (of whom hardly anyone knows that he used to be a good drummer and even played with Passport on their first album).
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
Posted: May 28 2009 at 12:48
BaldFriede wrote:
A lot of artists of early Krautrock used German as well as English, examples being Guru Guru, Amon Düül 2 or Kraan. Tracks like "Sarah's Ritt durch den Schwarzwald" by Kraan, "Henriette Krötenschwanz" or "Kronwinkl 23" by Amon Düül 2 and "Tango Fango" by Guru Guru may serve as examples. The first one to only use German as a language in German rock music was singer Udo Lindenberg (of whom hardly anyone knows that he used to be a good drummer and even played with Passport on their first album).
I was in Viet Nam for 14 mos (most of 1970 and part of 71). Because most of the guys were in their late teens or early twenties rock and roll was the dominant form of music. There was only one military radio station and they played a lot of top 40 songs. If you've seen the Robin Williams movie "Good Morning Viet Nam" that's the radio station I'm referring to.
I was at a smaller base in a more remote area but we would occasionally get a floor show with a rock band and two or three go-go dancers. They were usually from Bangkok but one time we had an Australian band with white, round-eyed dancers. The bands always played whatever was popular back in the states (you haven't heard anything like In A Gadda De Vida sung with a Thai accent).
And of course, as a general rule they ended the shows with their version of "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" by the Animals.
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Online
Points: 7867
Posted: May 28 2009 at 13:23
Sean Trane wrote:
NotAProghead wrote:
By the way, some bands from East Germany had albums in English.
Iguess what you sing was also an issue
Plastic People Of The Universe spent years in jail and they sang in Czeck
Not always too dramatic.
By the way, best lyricists like Burkhard Lasch and Wolfgang Tilgner collaborated with many East German bands. So what you sing is an issue, and many of those songs of the 70s became classics.
Here is an example of a good (and proggy) song by KARAT called "Albatros":
Words "Albatros does not know frontiers" sounded in 1979 almost provocative, but the album has been released both in East and West Germany.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying communists at all. I only tell not everything was as bad as it sometimes seems.
Edited by NotAProghead - May 28 2009 at 13:28
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Why did most German bands sing in English?
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lucas wrote:
, courtesy of the stasi
.
They didn't leave quietly everywhere, and hunkg out to empire bits until the mid-60's for big colonies and sometimes as late as the late 70's for islands..... 
