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What is happening in Jerusalem?

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Guldbamsen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 04:14
Thanks...I should probably have known
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 05:05
Originally posted by Sagichim Sagichim wrote:

^ @rogerthat yes you’re right although in this case I admitted that the police made a huge mistake and I know for sure that the reason for that was only to keep the order and not to provoke or to show whos the boss, that doesn’t mean they are the only one to blame, there are so many factors that would benefit from such escalation for example obviously Hamas.
What I want to say is that the police action isn’t an excuse for violence and missiles. As we speak hundreds of missiles are flying here every few hours I wonder if any one knows about it around here ?

That depends again, unfortunately, on your chosen echo chamber.  

There is this on the one hand, blatant misreporting by NYPost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjMN_bHuWEA&t=183s

On the other hand, yes, there is indeed a contingent that makes it out like an outright massacre by Israel of Palestine and ignores that Hamas started with the rocket launches. As Trump once said, "What you think you're so innocent?" LOL

As I said in my earlier comment, if everyone is busy blaming each other, it does mean everybody is to blame.  And as Guldbamsen put it, an individual or collective sense of ego seems to get in the way of acknowledging faults on one's own side before that of others.  I do appreciate that you started out by mentioning where Israel erred.  This is sadly the spirit that is missing in most quarters or at least the most vociferous ones (which dominate the discourse).


Edited by rogerthat - May 16 2021 at 05:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 15:13
The talk about the media reminds of a book I read not too long ago, a pretty successful book in the Netherlands by Joris Luyendijk who was a journalist in the Middle East before and during the Iraq War. Of course not all of it applies to the parties involved here, but he describes how impossible it is to get an objective framing of events when governments and leaders have heavy investment in looking favorable to the outside world, the press is guided towards cherry-picked items and interviewees and even the local inhabitants are left unsure about what to believe. I don't know what the freedom of press in Israel is like right now (in the reporting on the conflict I mean), but the book at least includes the Israel of back then as one of the examples. 
Either way that did make me a lot more wary and skeptical about news reporting from conflict areas by any media, so I would agree that in this case that it might be better to hold off on discussions on the finest details of this or that terrible act as reported facts seem to be confusing and contradictory all the way down, especially right after the event. But hey, I don't follow the news too closely anyways so I might be wrong in this case...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 16:11
in the 2020 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries.

for comparison: the USA ranked 46th, Germany ranked 13th. the top 4 were Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark


Edited by BaldJean - May 16 2021 at 16:23


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 16:32
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

in the 2020 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries

Nothing is worth the information unless it has context. In the 2021 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries. 

https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021

Interestingly enough, all these Middle-Eastern countries ranked far lower:

105. Kuwait
107. Lebanon
122. Afghanistan
128. Qatar
129. Jordan
131. United Arab Emirates
132. Palestine
133. Oman
153. Turkey
163. Iraq
165. Libya
166. Egypt
169. Yemen
170. Saudi Arabia
173. Syria
174. Iran

In context, it would seem that Israel has far more freedom of the press than all their neighbors (and of course, all their enemies). As for any other cultural conclusions, I will leave that to you.

P.S. And you are reviewing outdated material, my dear. The U.S. jumped up a whole 2 spots to 44 in 2021's index. WOOT!



Edited by The Dark Elf - May 16 2021 at 16:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 16:49
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

in the 2020 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries


Nothing is worth the information unless it has context. In the 2021 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries. 

https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021

Interestingly enough, all these Middle-Eastern countries ranked far lower:

105. Kuwait
107. Lebanon
122. Afghanistan
128. Qatar
129. Jordan
131. United Arab Emirates
132. Palestine
133. Oman
153. Turkey
163. Iraq
165. Libya
166. Egypt
169. Yemen
170. Saudi Arabia
173. Syria
174. Iran

In context, it would seem that Israel has far more freedom of the press than all their neighbors (and of course, all their enemies). As for any other cultural conclusions, I will leave that to you.

P.S. And you are reviewing outdated material, my dear. The U.S. jumped up a whole 2 spots to 44 in 2021's index. WOOT!


Here's a little more context. Any country embroiled in a violent war like state will naturally have press and media that is less free. And in the US, it's the political divisions boarding on insurrection which puts it that group. I don't see the Scandinavian countries in that semi or full war like state.

Edited by SteveG - May 16 2021 at 16:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 23:09
FYI, The Dark Mind, I can't speak Elvish but can speak English and use Twitter. So, I'm not bound to be informed by our media. Plus, we have some really good press mediums too. Plus, I don't deem my country as Middle-Eastern.

The problem here is... No matter how we, the rest of the world, try to explain some things to you (to a large portion of the Americans with some hapless mindsets); it'll be in vain. A VERY LARGE number of you don't even know where my country is. Some of my American customers said that, "Ah Turkey, it was in Africa right?" And most of the rest have to be reminded that there's "a country near Greece." I don't give a f**k, but feel sorry for you...

I prefer Chinese wisdom to pseudo-Elvish one.



Edited by Shadowyzard - May 16 2021 at 23:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 23:43
Back on topic, my country (Turkey) widely uses the term "terör devleti" for Israel, whenever they attack Palestinians. But it is too obvious that this is just a Muslim reflex/reaction. It doesn't even mean "a terrorist state", but rather "terror state". Which doesn't make much sense, more than a hasty and careless outburst. I think they want to mean, "a state that exerts terror".

Anyway, this is just a FYI. I don't back this statement up. I feel and think exactly like Lewian on this matter.

Also, like Guldbamsen said, peace. Ying Yang

Edited by Shadowyzard - May 16 2021 at 23:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oguzeren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 05:08
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

someone from Turkey telling me to mind my own business is laughable.


Someone from which countries can post their opinions here, may I ask?

The fact that so many journalists are jailed in my country does NOT mean all citizens are supporting that. And if one is democrat enough to be against that, he/she would also be aware that this "someone from Turkey..." sentence is pure discrimination.

Don't get me wrong, I will never support the current regime, and that's why I moved to Europe four years ago.

The area is chaos, thanks to the support from all countries (including mine) to several armed groups which are active in middle east. I'm not an expert at all, but I keep reading about islamic / kurdish / whatever groups receiving a lot of support...

It's easy to blame the current Turkish regime, but it's actually a result of all these activities in the area, throughout the last few decades. Maybe beginning with the cold-war era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 08:21
Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

FYI, The Dark Mind, I can't speak Elvish but can speak English and use Twitter. So, I'm not bound to be informed by our media. Plus, we have some really good press mediums too. Plus, I don't deem my country as Middle-Eastern.

The problem here is... No matter how we, the rest of the world, try to explain some things to you (to a large portion of the Americans with some hapless mindsets); it'll be in vain. A VERY LARGE number of you don't even know where my country is. Some of my American customers said that, "Ah Turkey, it was in Africa right?" And most of the rest have to be reminded that there's "a country near Greece." I don't give a f**k, but feel sorry for you...

The attack of the impotent Turks. LOL

I don't really give a damn about what you think, however I do know where Turkey is. A simple WIKI look up will suffice:

The Middle East is a transcontinental region in Afro-Eurasia which generally includes Western Asia (except for Transcaucasia), all of Egypt (mostly in North Africa), and Turkey (partly in Southeast Europe). The term has come into wider usage as a replacement of the term Near East (as opposed to the Far East) beginning in the early 20th century. The broader concept of the "Greater Middle East" (aka the Middle East and North Africa or the MENAP) also includes The MaghrebSudanDjiboutiSomalia, the ComorosAfghanistanPakistan, and sometimes Transcaucasia and Central Asia into the region.

From an historical perspective and for all intents and purposes, Turkey ceased to be a European country once Constantinople fell in 1453. For the next 469 years the Ottoman Empire ruled a primarily Middle-eastern set of provinces including what is now Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq, the Muslim fringe of North Africa, and the European Balkans. As a medievalist, I can discuss the history of Byzantium all day, if you wish. We can also discuss the partitioning of the empire in the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920.

In conclusion, I offer you a message from Sgt. Hulka....




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 08:32
Greg, dear Greg. This was not an attack at all... I really don't want to call you "delusional", but you're tempting me... If I had to place bets, I might put all my fortune on "Greg knows where Turkey is." Wink

The Middle-East thing is disputable, even if we ignore the fact that the West is categorizing everything, and draws the "maps". 

I'd be delighted to learn some Medieval stuff from you. I'm also very interested in (albeit not very knowledgeable on) Medieval Europe. 

Care to do something about that, like creating polls, initializing discussions etc.?

Yours Middle-Easternly, Tongue

Özgür.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 10:59
Ozgur (sorry but my keyboard doesn't have umlauts), please remember that it's the victors who write the histories. And draw the maps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 11:07
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ozgur (sorry but my keyboard doesn't have umlauts), please remember that it's the victors who write the histories. And draw the maps.


Clap

I can never forget that... We, Turks, are far from being saints in this regard, either. I really admire the countries who are totally honest about writing their histories, if there are such countries. Perhaps Thomas knows... But, this is not the proper place for this, I think.

Edited by Shadowyzard - May 17 2021 at 11:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 18:56
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ozgur (sorry but my keyboard doesn't have umlauts), please remember that it's the victors who write the histories. And draw the maps.
True , but thankfully there are REAL historians who look at both sides of any event or conflict and yearn to understand , objectively, where the balance lies. ("Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius)". I have strived for this for 45 years , only because the media worldwide has become so slanted and perverted by propagandists on all sides of the spectrum. Fact instead of any convenient propaganda. Having been in that neck of the woods , I can state that some of the most stubborn people on the planet live in that small area that has become such a Gordian Knot that a lifetime of research still cannot untie it properly.  It's not Kansas , LOL 

Edited by tszirmay - May 17 2021 at 18:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 20:02
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ozgur (sorry but my keyboard doesn't have umlauts), please remember that it's the victors who write the histories. And draw the maps.
True , but thankfully there are REAL historians who look at both sides of any event or conflict and yearn to understand , objectively, where the balance lies. <span style="color: rgb69, 69, 69; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px;">("Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - </span>[URL=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius" rel="nofollow]<span ="s1"="" style="color: rgb228, 175, 10;]Marcus Aurelius</span>[/URL]<span style="color: rgb69, 69, 69; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px;">)". I have strived for this for 45 years , only because the media worldwide has become so slanted and perverted by propagandists on all sides of the spectrum. </span><span style="color: rgb69, 69, 69; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px;">Fact instead of any convenient propaganda. Having been in that neck of the woods , I can state that some of the most stubborn people on the planet live in that small area that has become such a Gordian Knot that a lifetime of research still cannot untie it properly.  It's not Kansas , LOL </span>
I believe what the philosopher emperor was trying to say is that there is no objective truth. Just your views and mine, that may or may not be in agreement.

Edited by SteveG - May 17 2021 at 20:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 21:48
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The attack of the impotent Turks. LOL

I don't really give a damn about what you think, however I do know where Turkey is. A simple WIKI look up will suffice:

The Middle East is a transcontinental region in Afro-Eurasia which generally includes Western Asia (except for Transcaucasia), all of Egypt (mostly in North Africa), and Turkey (partly in Southeast Europe). The term has come into wider usage as a replacement of the term Near East (as opposed to the Far East) beginning in the early 20th century. The broader concept of the "Greater Middle East" (aka the Middle East and North Africa or the MENAP) also includes The MaghrebSudanDjiboutiSomalia, the ComorosAfghanistanPakistan, and sometimes Transcaucasia and Central Asia into the region.

From an historical perspective and for all intents and purposes, Turkey ceased to be a European country once Constantinople fell in 1453. For the next 469 years the Ottoman Empire ruled a primarily Middle-eastern set of provinces including what is now Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq, the Muslim fringe of North Africa, and the European Balkans. As a medievalist, I can discuss the history of Byzantium all day, if you wish. We can also discuss the partitioning of the empire in the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920.

In conclusion, I offer you a message from Sgt. Hulka....





But this kind of definition of Middle East is useless for Asians.  We usually refer to the Gulf states (plus Iraq and Iran) when we say Middle East.  Kazhak/Afghanistan/Turkmenistan is Central Asia.   Morocco/Egypt are the mediterranean states while Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia fall in Eurasia.  Pakistan and Bangladesh along with India are part of South Asia or the Indian subcontinent however defined (I prefer South Asia as it is broader and includes countries like Myanmar). And the reason for doing so is that these regions are all culturally different.  You will not find Mughal architecture anywhere in the Gulf, for instance (unless somebody decided to copy it and build a 20th century tribute to decadence). Likewise, the typical layout of mosques seen in the Gulf is absent in Pakistan or India (which as everyone knows or should know was just one country prior to 1947). Pakistanis write in Urdu but not Arabic and while Urdu script is radically different from Hindi, spoken Urdu sounds almost exactly the same. Any definition of Middle East that includes Pakistan or even Afghanistan makes no sense to me.  

You may say that is just my opinion but these definitions sound suspiciously Westernized to me.  It may be more convenient from a Western perspective to just lump all these countries in one basket.  But that does not impose any obligation on others to see it the same way nor does it make us 'wrong' if we disagree.  I don't doubt that you know the history of Levant inside out.  But the definition of Middle East you have cited is nevertheless too broad. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Regardless of the current sides of this old problem, it's time for a Palestinian State and be done with it.

1937 Peel Commission partition plan - rejected unanimously by arab parties. 

1947 UN Partition Plan - rejected unanimously by all arab nations and interested parties. Follow up the plan with an invasion leaving all of the West Bank in the hands of Jordan and Gaza with Egypt. Absolutely no progress made by arabs to give Palestinians an autonomous state in those territories. 

2000 Camp David Summit - Arafat was offered a state, rejected it, and instigated the intifada which, among other things, including suicide bombing restaurants and buses. 

2008 Ehud Olmert Peace Proposal - Rejected by Mahmoud Abbas.  

Maybe you think its time for a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians dont seem to think so. Or at least certainly not a state limited to the West Bank and Gaza. 

For the record, the I am of the belief that the creation of a Palestinian state will result in a security and humanitarian crisis for both Israelis and Arabs far worse than anything any of us have experienced until this point. 
  1. Jews living in historically significant areas that would fall under PA control will be butchered by mobs and abetted by anti-Semitic authorities. 
  2. The PA will quickly be toppled by Hamas and Islamic Jihad who, aided by Iran, will use their new found resources and power to arm themselves further to oppress their political opposition and non-Muslim Palestinians. 
  3. Those newly added weapons will be even closer to populous Israeli cities causing immense human and economic damage. 
  4. Israeli military responses will of course take their toll. 
In sum, if you care about life, you should oppose the creation of a Palestinian state under current conditions. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:38
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

What is happening in Jerusalem? The same tribal bullsh*t that's been happening for the last 5000 years. You should be used to it by now.

This is a pretty ignorant comment and shows you know basically nothing about the conflict. I mean sure there's a tribal element, but 5000 years? Judaism as a religion isn't even that old! Are you not aware that Jews regularly lived in Isalmic lands peacefully? Are you not aware that the Arab and Jewish self-determination movements that precipitated the conflict in the early 20th century were largely secular and socialist? Maybe read a book or two before embarrassing yourself on the internet. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:46
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I don't see Israel attacking Iran but just pummeling the settlement areas. Unfortunately. 

Man I don't even know where to start on this one. 

"I don't see Israel attacking Iran " - Hate to break it to you, but just because SteveG doesn't see something, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Israel has been attacking Iran clandestinely for a decade now. This includes, among other things:
  1. Attacks on weapons movements from Iran to Lebanon through Syria. 
  2. Targeted assassinations.
  3. Cyber attacks.
  4. Attacks on para-military (i.e. terorrist) organizations funded and armed by Iran. This includes, surprise surprise, Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza. 
"just pummeling the settlement areas." - By all means, please enlighten as the last time Israel conducted any air strikes in the West Bank... I assume you are referring to the latest round of fighting in which GAZA is being "pummeled" by Israeli air and artillery. But of course Gaza has not had a single Jewish resident since 2005 when Israel unilaterally withdrew all settlers from the territory. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:50
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

The theory I've held for the past 30 years is that many German Nazis from WW II have been reincarnated as Israelis. Old habits are hard to change--especially ones that have been established over many lifetimes.

You are obviously very ignorant of both Nazi history and Israeli history.   

With hot takes like this, its no wonders your album reviews are such trash. There's just something fundamentally broken in how you perceive reality. 
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