American Politics the 2016 edition

See? I told you people would think I am an idiot for supporting Clinton, because it's so completely obvious how awful she is!

^ you're welcome.

lazland wrote: That's an interesting comment, given that my country is generally regarded as being the oldest democracy in the world. We are not having growing pains, we are having fundamental political and social pains, as are most Western democracies. In the 20th century, by and large, the populations, in spite of dreadful wars, were relatively content. That was because families had income from jobs which enabled them to live a relatively decent life (I know I am generalising, but you take my point). In recent times, the unchecked growth of global capitalism, pushed by the very corporations who back the likes of Hilary, has led to a rather nasty cocktail of unemployment, deindustrialisation, immigration, low wages. People are, very understandably, unhappy and fearful for the future. How mature democracies, and it's mainstream politicians, deal with such issues will be the defining political issue of our times.

^ Yes, I'm trying to understand the "anti-freedom of religion" thing myself. 

^Theocracy is the word I was looking for.  Theocracy is pretty much the opposite of freedom of religion.

The T wrote: ^And even if Logan means a state where religion is discouraged or(worse) forbidden, it's quite the opposite not just to freedom of religion but to freedom in general.  I really can't understand. We'll have to wait for clarifications.

I won't try to dissect your post Teo -- my eyes are not good enough these days to easily read it. I won't come up with a laundry list,the truth is out there, but Clinton has not just flip-flopped on issues, she has actually told many strange mistruthsand odd claims (an odd one regarding being under sniper fire in Bosnia which she mentioned several times.

As for the freedom of religion comment as well as the growing pains comment that Lazland spoke of. I'll quote myself for the relevant bit cause I have to remember my thought association:

"I support equal opportunity for men and women, LGBT rights, but am not a great believer in freedom of religion, especially when religion seeks to limit the rights of the individual and groups, imposes itself on others, its values are antithetical to those of the nation, and adherents wish ill on the greater society. Great Britain, for instance, is certainly going through growing pains
It's a tricky one to legislate, though. Government needs to be intrusive there."

I was being ambiguous as it's a charged issue, and I know I should be careful in what I say. The growing pains comment was meant to be a pun on immigration issues that the UK has had where a religious minority (a devout, vocal part of a religion that has grown in the UK) has defended their rights to free speech and freedom of expressions in their religion while denouncing the UK, calling it their enemy, denouncing freedoms we expect in the West, and claiming that it will eventually be a Caliphate and the UK will live under Sharia. They are not a tolerant bunch, and people are scared.

Of course we don't want theocracy, they do. I meant that I'm opposed to absolute religious freedoms, but I was paralleling Emigre's language, when those freedoms put people in danger, adherents seek to undermine democracy and rationalism, and are oppressive. We already have limits in place, of course. Certainly if a religion was developed around a Hitler myth, claiming he was a messenger of the gods and one must follow his example, it would not be tolerated. To put in different words, we can not always be tolerant of religious practices or religious adherents, and the dogma requires scrutiny.

emigre80 wrote: I would grant you that people are insecure and fearful in the current climate.  However, the current climate is exactly what those insecure and fearful people voted for.  There has always been a choice of more left-wing candidates who would have fought for the working and middle classes.

The T wrote: ^And even if Logan means a state where religion is discouraged or(worse) forbidden, it's quite the opposite not just to freedom of religion but to freedom in general.  I really can't understand. We'll have to wait for clarifications.

My clarification is in my post above, but I wasn't advocating that we ban religion even though some "religions" are banned in some Western countries and others are not recognized by the state. I did say that government must be intrusive when it comes to issues of religion. I think that people should be free to think what they like (or what they are inculcated with), but not necessarily to act on those beliefs even if the religious text/ dogma calls them to such action.

I could use many examples from many religions, cults and religious leaders where beliefs/ practices are antithetical to our much loved notions of freedom and beliefs and our desire to protect groups and individuals from persecution and harm, and I expect you could too.

If a Jehovah's Witness has a child that needs a blood transfusion to live but it goes against their religion, should they have the religious freedom to say no to the transfusion? It's a thorny issue. I think as an adult the person should be free to choose, but a child requires more protection from the state (and I personally don't like forcing religion on children partially as I think that limits their freedom of thinking, but that's another issue)

When religious laws or codes conflict with secular state laws, it can lead to many problems, but I would much rather have laws that limit religious freedoms.

This is a topic of particular interest to me, and I would love to go on and on and have a lengthy discussion about this, but I don't want to derail the thread.

Back to American politics, and I hope everyone knows I despise Drumpf... Hmm, I actually have nothing substantive to say. Except for a joke I just thought of:
"A Trump walks into a bar", though the "A" and "walks into a bar" is pretty redundant for the joke.

Islam is a religion of peace when we all follow the same Sharia, accept Allah's will and live under the Caliphate.

Edited by Logan - June 03 2016 at 13:18