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Topic ClosedShould Metallica be in the forum?

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Poll Question: Should Metallica be in the forum?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
36 [37.89%]
59 [62.11%]
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Logan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:56
The poll is pretty meaningless, for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.  And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum. LOL

One thing I will say is that I tried to listen to both sides, but I think that the communication, understanding, respecting and exploring different viewpoints was lacking at times.  Too often comments get dismissed, ignored, or deflected that don't support one's point of view.  It's a learning process.   The important think now is to respect the decision even if one doesn't agree, and respect those who thought differently.

As for whether or not it's Prog, that is debatable, and I don't expect that debate to end now, but it should at least end here.  I'm glad a decision has been reached -- on to other things.  *Laurie Anderson* cough Wink LOL
LOL

Edited by Logan - September 30 2008 at 18:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 19:01
^ exactly Greg....that is why SC's handle additions and not the whole forum... and why polls haven't been used here in ages.  They are worthless... and everyone knows it... unless of course...  they are useful to try to make a point.  Honestly... what if the forum had voted yes.... should the PMT have included them... of course not.  They are the ones who define PM... not every swiinging dick who thinks they have a notion of what PM is.  The site has to have standards... and the teams uphold them.... and damn well I may add... whether we agree all the time or not. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 19:24
Well, if majority polls would be all it takes to add artists, it wouldn't take much effort to add Spice Girls or Justin Timberlake in here ;-)

It can be a useful tool to validate some opinions if utilized in the correct manner though - and in this case it spawned a good debate; one of the best I've seen since I started lurking here.

One fact all parts in this debate can readily agree upon, is that whatever the outcome of this debate was to be, there would be people not happy about the result. But a decision have been made now - time to move on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 19:37
Ok, at least, time to write some Metallica's reviewsHug




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 19:37
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ok... I've no problems with Zafreth.. Hug And with nobody in general.... Tongue

Please, for the 349873 time, let's wait....  I guess we all said what we had to say... Unless we start repeating ourselves... Tongue

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 19:41
it's been a good, hearty, mostly honest discussion and the decision is well-taken  ..and I suspect the 'debate' has only just begun, with a firestorm of controversy ready-made once they're added, threads as 'Metalli-suck on PA? You People Are Ignorant, or Corrupt' ..even with all the "they're just Progrelated" reassurances, it'll be fun.. in the words of one beloved SC; *munch munch*




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 19:43
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

it's been a good, hearty, mostly honest discussion and the decision is well-taken  ..and I suspect the 'debate' has only just begun, with a firestorm of controversy ready-made once they're added, threads as 'Metalli-suck on PA? You People Are Ignorant, or Corrupt' ..even with all the "they're just Progrelated" reassurances, it'll be fun.. in the words of one beloved SC; *munch munch*




 
To combat those threads it would be nice that the admins point this master´s degree in Metallica thread  34+ pages.Wink




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 20:08
Originally posted by zafreth zafreth wrote:

 
To combat those threads it would be nice that the admins point this master´s degree in Metallica thread  34+ pages.Wink
 
Good idea... Instead of a biography, in the band's page I'll just put a link to this thread with this notice: "You know the band, this thread's why they're here, read or just shut up". TongueLOL


Edited by The T - September 30 2008 at 20:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 20:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 21:30
Glad to see Metallica finally given their due.  Still, I believe, as I have argued previously, that the band is indeed Progressive Metal--perhaps one of the first, in fact.  But, I suppose that point is moot, especially in view of general prejudices.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 21:31
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

The poll is pretty meaningless,
 
So meaningless that it was started to support Metallica because the odds were against them.
 
for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.
 
I feel this is offensive Logan, this means that all the ones who agree with you are OK but the ones that don't..Kee jerk reaction...I believe I heard this exact term before.
 
  And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum. LOL
 
And isn't it possible for a  emtalńhead not familliar with Metallica to vote in favour?

I remember a month before Octavarium was released and when the album was kept in secrret, we already had almost 100  ratings giving it 5 stars and reviews calling it the masterpiece of the century, when as a fact they had only listened a bunch of old La'Brie tracks.

In my case I never dare to talk about a band I haven't heard before.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 21:52
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

The poll is pretty meaningless,
 
So meaningless that it was started to support Metallica because the odds were against them.

I think that what Logan means is that the results of this poll, like those of all polls in general, need to be taken cum grano salis, especially when the poll is not scientifically constructed nor technical expertise is available.  In other words, it is naive to maintain there is a one-to-one correspondence between the poll and reality.  Any statistician will tell you this, counselor.

 
for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.
 
I feel this is offensive Logan, this means that all the ones who agree with you are OK but the ones that don't..Kee jerk reaction...I believe I heard this exact term before.

Observe the character of posts in this thread.  Many of those favoring induction provided something resembling a coherent argument, whereas the dissenters generally failed to write anything substantive to support their view.  Sounds like "knee-jerk" is applicable here.





Edited by WinterLight - September 30 2008 at 21:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 21:57
^Ivan, your opinion is valid. The only thing that bothers me (and not so much in this thread but from another one in a different section) is the fact that you've said that here we add bands just because we want to, because they're our favorite bands. I invite you to read all this thread if you have time to waste (because that's what it will be for you, seeing that you don't like neither Metallica nor prog-metal if I'm not wrong) and see if ANY of the addition's main supporters have not given at least a few real, musical arguments.
 
The poll by the way was started by a member who pretty much dissapeared after the opening post. We can clearly say that NONE of the major supporters started the thread. I even said I was not going to participate because I knew that people would reject the possibility with no thought given to it. I was proven wrong, I saw people with the wish to discuss, and I also re-entered and ultimately suggested the nad for prog-related after giving up on my idea of adding them in prog-metal (which I STILL insist would've been even more accurate).
 


Edited by The T - September 30 2008 at 21:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 22:17
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Ivan, your opinion is valid. The only thing that bothers me (and not so much in this thread but from another one in a different section) is the fact that you've said that here we add bands just because we want to, because they're our favorite bands. I invite you to read all this thread if you have time to waste (because that's what it will be for you, seeing that you don't like neither Metallica nor prog-metal if I'm not wrong) and see if ANY of the addition's main supporters have not given at least a few real, musical arguments.
 
To be honest, UI don't see any valid argument by eiyther site, I've been reading the posts and the main argument is that they are ibnfluencial, but the big question is influential on Prog or influential on Metal, I believe it's the second.
 
The poll by the way was started by a member who pretty much dissapeared after the opening post. We can clearly say that NONE of the major supporters started the thread. I even said I was not going to participate because I knew that people would reject the possibility with no thought given to it. I was proven wrong, I saw people with the wish to discuss, and I also re-entered and ultimately suggested the nad for prog-related after giving up on my idea of adding them in prog-metal (which I STILL insist would've been even more accurate).
 
It was srtarted by a supporter, until today, when a band I proposed was rejected, I used to shut up and say nothing again, but seems that lobbying and insisting is the clue.
 
But, they are already here, we're one step closer to be a general music site, and again as always will shut up because here's no point to say anything, the won't be removed.
 
Iván
 
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 22:23
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
To be honest, UI don't see any valid argument by eiyther site, I've been reading the posts and the main argument is that they are ibnfluencial, but the big question is influential on Prog or influential on Metal, I believe it's the second.

And the argument for your judgment is?

 
It was srtarted by a supporter, until today, when a band I proposed was rejected, I used to shut up and say nothing again, but seems that lobbying and insisting is the clue.

The real issue emerges.

 
But, they are already here, we're one step closer to be a general music site, and again as always will shut up because here's no point to say anything, the won't be removed.
 
Perhaps you don't grasp the intended meaning of "prog related"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 22:34
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:


And the argument for your judgment is?

 
I gave my argument in the thread and only after listening the albums mentioned as closer to Prog

The real issue emerges.

 
No that's not the issue, I do it because I believe it's better for the site to respect the decisions of the adms, and I will continue doing it as always, I believe it's wrong to insist and insist until it gets accepted, mainly when the vast majority is against. 

Perhaps you don't grasp the intended meaning of "prog related"?}

Have you read the name at the end of the Prog Related definition?

It's my name, and you know why is there?

Because I wrote it, so I guess I understand what it means, it must be exceptional, but now seems like adding Related bands is the main priority.
 
Iván.



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 30 2008 at 22:42
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 22:57
I told Peter that I'd avoid this type of colour-coded posting, and that I don't like to break up posts, or leave out related content, since context can be lost.  Never-the-less, using proper quote tags might be a hassle.  Me family wants my attention, so, the lazy way.  Me in black and then for my latest n purple. LOL

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

The poll is pretty meaningless,
 
So meaningless that it was started to support Metallica because the odds were against them.

I think that what Logan means is that the results of this poll, like those of all polls in general, need to be taken cum grano salis, especially when the poll is not scientifically constructed nor technical expertise is available.  In other words, it is naive to maintain there is a one-to-one correspondence between the poll and reality.  Any statistician will tell you this, counselor.

Thank you. Yes.  As a general guide to opinion it's alright, but it's the arguments that matter much more.  And I also explained why I felt this particular poll not very useful in the rest of my paragraph.  Generally, it goes for polls in Prog Polls, though I use them as complementary to discussion, I tend not to find them in and of themselves of much use beyond showing people's biases in a general way.  Check out the greatest polls.  It doesn't tell who is objectively greatest, the results only show biases (commonly people don't even know the various choices well, or know enough of the choices to come to any real conclusion.  Sometimes people vote when only two choices are listed for the only one they know).
 
for quite a few it will be a knee-jerk reaction.
 
I feel this is offensive Logan, this means that all the ones who agree with you are OK but the ones that don't..Kee jerk reaction...I believe I heard this exact term before.

Observe the character of posts in this thread.  Many of those favoring induction provided something resembling a coherent argument, whereas the dissenters generally failed to write anything substantive to support their view.  Sounds like "knee-jerk" is applicable here.


No it doesn't mean that, Ivan.  Would you feel as offended, Ivan, if you realised that I don't support Metallica's inclusion?  I meant knee-jerk reactions irregardless of which side one is on.  I was rather offended when someone on the pro-Metallica as Prog Metal side said that no one had provided musical arguments against Metallica's inclusion.  Just because one doesn't consider another poster's argument valid does not make it a non-argument.  The next paragraph of my post which you did not quote here, or respond to, touched on those issues, but does not lay blame on any side.  I tried to be fair.

  And you always get people voting who are not that familiar with the material, people voting yes because they like it, people voting no because they dislike it and dislike metal. People are biased.  If you look through the thread, some were voting no for the archives (all categories), some were probably voting no for it in Prog Metal, some were voting yes for it in Proto (though it doesn't fir parameters), some for Related, some for Prog Metal, and some for the forum. LOL
 
And isn't it possible for a  emtalńhead not familliar with Metallica to vote in favour?

Absolutely, of course.  See why I don't think the results of much value in and of themselves?

I remember a month before Octavarium was released and when the album was kept in secrret, we already had almost 100  ratings giving it 5 stars and reviews calling it the masterpiece of the century, when as a fact they had only listened a bunch of old La'Brie tracks.

Yeah.

In my case I never dare to talk about a band I haven't heard before.

Excellent, but others do.  I talk about bands I've never heard before, I just don't pretend to be an authority, or pretend to know the music.  I might discuss what I've read etc. It's important to be clear on that, of course.
 
Iván

Excuse me if I add in the nest paragraph of my post.


One thing I will say is that I tried to listen to both sides, but I think that the communication, understanding, respecting and exploring different viewpoints was lacking at times.  Too often comments get dismissed, ignored, or deflected that don't support one's point of view.  It's a learning process.   The important think now is to respect the decision even if one doesn't agree, and respect those who thought differently.

Even if I don't agree with the decision, I will respect the admins' decision.  I actually don't care much one way or the other, and don't know enough of the music to have a very strong stance.  I was just left unconvinced by the arguments, and was not that satisfied with the response to my concerns.  It sometimes felt more adversarial, nit-picky, and dismissive than really trying to explain, or explore the notions/ gist -- not that one should have to explain. Too often people miss or sidetrack the point of a post (espcially when they get too caught up in minutia).





Edited by Logan - September 30 2008 at 23:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 23:02
I think the fact that there is 35 flippin' pages easily answers the question. 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 00:16
i think 50 needs to be hit
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 02:14
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 - the votes are in....

The admin team, joined by M@X, have decided that Metallica is indeed not Prog, but with Prog Metal in mind we feel we can justify their inclusion in Prog Related. Most of the arguments for and against as discussed in this thread have been taken into account.



Oh well, as far as I'm concerned, c'est la vie...

Over and out...
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