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emigre80 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:01
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

On the contrary, a number of states have adopted forms of social welfare without ever having been socialist entities. In fact, a Marxist would argue that capitalist societies utilize social welfare programs as a way of buying off the underclass so that they never revolt.
 
BTW, I am 57 years old and a historian. So please don't jump to the conclusion that I am not aware of the overall standard of comparison. American democrats are centrist compared not only to communists, but also to the left-wing/labor/socialist etc. parties in much of the rest of the world.  They may be on the "left side of the fence" but not by much, which makes them more centrist than left.

In the "rest of the world," yes, but this is the American politics thread, let's not forget. There may be shades of conservatism that allow for social programs, but traditional l'aissez-faire capitalism does not. LFC rejects any gov't intervention that goes beyond law enforcement/military.
 
Sorry, I misunderstood - I thought you were placing the Democrats in the left/right dichotomy worldwide. Within American politics only, yes, the Democrats are a left-wing party. I just think it's funny to call them left-wing in general because left-wing in the rest of the world means you actually hold left-wing positions instead of centrist-left ones.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:05
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I guess from an American perspective, the ones with sensitivity and understanding of these issues are on the left, and since Mr New Member thinks even TRUMP is left wing, is a normal conclusion for him that identity politics are a "hallmark of socialism", because of course a hallmark of "conservatism" or whatever is supposedly right for him is manliness, machoismo, family, tradition, property, etc. 

I don't get your fixation on me being a new member. So what? Aren't new people allowed to participate in discussions?

Trump is left wing, he has traditionally supported abortion, socialized medicine, big government, and is anti-free trade. Yes, he talks like a conservative when it comes to immigration, but that's about it.

Also, machismo is a very phony and self-conscious behaviour. I believe it's only used by people with low self-esteem.

The thing is, he can't be trusted of course. He can't be called left wing, OR right because we really have no idea.LOL He's flopped on everything you mentioned, (including the drug wars where he went from pro decriminalization to hardline against now) but he also  used to be privatizing Soc Security and gov cuts. 
He's been hard line against that now BUT since he's bashed for flipping on other issues, it's only fair he cant be trusted on those. 
It actually worries me if elected he'll suddenly 180 on his no cuts to Soc Security, Medicare, Medicaid and there's enough Repubs and moderate Dems to get such things done. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:31
Strictly from an environmental standpoint I would have to vote against Trump (or any current Republican, for that matter). Trump's latest tirade, calling for rescinding the Paris climate accord, eliminating environmental regulations and increasing the drilling of fossil fuel and adding coal-fired plants is simply stupid and so nearsighted as to be blind. 

From the New York Times:

 Donald J. Trump traveled Thursday to the heart of America’s oil and gas boom, where he called for more fossil fuel drilling and fewer environmental regulations while vowing to “cancel the Paris climate agreement,” the 2015 accord committing nearly every nation to taking action to curb climate change.

Laying out his positions on energy and the environment at an oil industry conference in North Dakota, he vowed to rescind President Obama’s signature climate change rules and revive construction of the Keystone XL pipeline, which would bring petroleum from Canada’s oil sands to Gulf Coast refineries.

The technology to live fossil fuel free is actually here and not some pipe dream (pun intended). For instance, earlier this year in the U.K. more homes were powered by solar energy in a 24-hour period than coal-fired or nuclear plants for the first time in history (and that did not take into account the growing use of wind energy). This is doubly interesting as coal pollution has been complained about since Charles Dickens was writing novels that commented on the ghastly fogs that poisoned London in the mid-19th century.

Propping up 19th century technologies like oil and coal to benefit the existing wealth structure is much like everything else supported by our odd conservatives: anti-evolution, anti-scientific, anti-religious freedom (and I would suggest limiting everyone else's rights in favor of fundamentalist Christians is, in itself, anti-religious freedom), anti-women, anti-education and anti-environment. Did I miss anything? Oh yes, anti-doing your job in congress. Give them turbans and beards and they're really no different from Muslim Mullahs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 10:41
Very well said, Greg. I could not agree more wholeheartedly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 11:13
I think it is a little misleading to characterize them as "anti" things, they might have some anti stances but the primary motivator is pro-money and pro-power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 11:18
They are anti things that conflict or interfere with their pro-money and pro-power agenda.

Edited by Logan - May 28 2016 at 11:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 11:26
Yeah, some things like the environment and his stance on freedom the press and net neutrality alone make Trump impossible to vote for.

And frankly, I don't believe his whole anti trade thing not when he's benefited from outsourced labor, nor do I believe his populism. He's a rich, connected New Yorker who's already showing his (not well hidden) ties to Wall Street, I don't believe for a moment his anti wall street, anti Citizens United stuff. 

Basically: I think trump will be a normal Republican. No need for all the worry so many have, both realistically and ideologically, but as a Republican we deff don't want him. 

I mean we forget "moderate, sane" Rubio is a tea partier and nice, kind ol Kasich literally advocates top down class warfare, believes in Reaganomics still and passed very restrictive women's health laws in Ohio. 
Cruz, well why even botherLOL None are acceptable 


Edited by JJLehto - May 28 2016 at 11:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 11:50
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Basically: I think trump will be a normal Republican. No need for all the worry so many have.
 
I'm going to carry on disagreeing with this trope every time I see it. I think that P.J. O'Rourke's recent statement says it all:

""I have a little announcement to make ... I'm voting for Hillary. I am endorsing Hillary," noted conservative author P.J. O'Rourke said on NPR's Wait Wait ... Don't Tell Me. The episode aired over the weekend.

"I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises," O'Rourke continued. "It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."

While many Republicans are falling in line — however reluctantly — behind de facto GOP nominee Donald Trump, O'Rourke is joining other prominent conservative authors like Bill Kristol, George Will and Erick Erickson in continuing to oppose a Trump candidacy.

"This man just can't be president," O'Rourke said, alluding to the nuclear codes the commander-in-chief takes control of upon assuming office. "They've got this button — this briefcase. He's going to find it."

"That is a ringing endorsement," fellow panelist Tom Bodett said after hearing O'Rourke's pitch."

 
It's the "within normal parameters" part I was thinking of. Trump is so far outside normal parameters that he cannot be counted on not to go to war with half with world over some perceived slight.  Would anyone stop him?  Could they?
 
I know someone who posted recently on social media: Oh, I survived 8 years of Bush, I can survive 4 years of Trump.  But there are people who did not survive 8 years of Bush - ask all the military families whose sons and daughters came home in body bags - and those who will not survive 4 years of Trump.  Even if he does not start any wars (I think you can bet the mortgage he will), he will certainly get rid of the ACA, and there are a lot of people now who are finally able to get the treatment they need who will lose it under Trump.  We cannot be cavalier about that possibility. People's lives and people's rights are at stake.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 12:11
The thing is, I have yet to hear anything from Trump that makes sense, something that is workable at home, something that can actually succeed in global politics. For instance, his jingoistic and cynical attacks against China are merely rhetoric, as most of the products from his Trump line are manufactured abroad, and, not surprisingly, in China:




So, he bashes the Chinese for making the cheap products he sells, and attacks Ford Motor Co. for opening a plant in Mexico when Ford has hired more U.S. citizens at good wages than Trump could ever count,  and Ford remains headquartered in Dearborn, MI. as it has the last hundred years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 13:10
Just because we all need a little political humor during this stressful time, check out "Why Bernie Sanders Is Actually Winning":
 
 
(someday I will learn how to embed videos, but today is not that day)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 14:42
Yeah that's the thing Dark Elf, it's all pure rhetoric. I mean way more than most politicians even. Most of his ideas are straight up nonsense or made up, so that's why most of his craziness doesn't worry me, in terms of realism...it's of course very disturbing what he says. 

Well like I said emigre, him being a normal Republican IS a bad thing that we don't wantLOL Ya conveniently left that part out, as well as me bashing his views on freedom of press, environment and etc
I also did mention I don't trust his populist economics, that he will probably try to make cuts to the social safety net and will deff continue our bad trade deals. Most sick is he probably would say "Oh no this is great deal, Im a winner ya know we deff are winning on this one" while it'll probably be the same sh*t deals we always get.  

So don't try to twist it into me implying he won't be bad for us, just he'll as bad as most Republicans....wont be the next Hitler or anything like people think. I still think Trump would be better than Cruz, I sincerely believe this. Cruz as PotUS with a tea party dominated Republican Party (especially if they maintain/retain Congress) that scares me more than anything


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 18:29
Kinda pessimistic but sums up the worst aspects of the two I think. https://c4ss.org/content/45119
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 19:18
I have no doubt that Trump will change but the Trump that he is right now is what got him this far. He knows that this thing is far from over and he still has to beat Clinton (or Sanders, or Biden/Warren).
He will continue his MO right up to election day and only if he wins the oval office will you start to see a different Trump.
He will tone it down but I don't see him changing his positions on the things he's been promising his supporters such as a strong economy, jobs, secure borders, national defense, ISIS. 
He knows that his loose cannon approach is an act and so do most of his followers but what they really care about is the fact that he is the only one talking about the things they care about.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 22:50
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yeah that's the thing Dark Elf, it's all pure rhetoric. I mean way more than most politicians even. Most of his ideas are straight up nonsense or made up, so that's why most of his craziness doesn't worry me, in terms of realism...it's of course very disturbing what he says. 

Well like I said emigre, him being a normal Republican IS a bad thing that we don't wantLOL Ya conveniently left that part out, as well as me bashing his views on freedom of press, environment and etc
I also did mention I don't trust his populist economics, that he will probably try to make cuts to the social safety net and will deff continue our bad trade deals. Most sick is he probably would say "Oh no this is great deal, Im a winner ya know we deff are winning on this one" while it'll probably be the same sh*t deals we always get.  

So don't try to twist it into me implying he won't be bad for us, just he'll as bad as most Republicans....wont be the next Hitler or anything like people think. I still think Trump would be better than Cruz, I sincerely believe this. Cruz as PotUS with a tea party dominated Republican Party (especially if they maintain/retain Congress) that scares me more than anything
 
 
I agree he would be better than Cruz, but still think that's like asking people to choose between Hitler and Stalin. I think the man is completely unhinged, which makes him worse than the usual selfish, greedy, heartless b*****ds that run as Republicans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 22:51
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I have no doubt that Trump will change but the Trump that he is right now is what got him this far. He knows that this thing is far from over and he still has to beat Clinton (or Sanders, or Biden/Warren).
He will continue his MO right up to election day and only if he wins the oval office will you start to see a different Trump.
He will tone it down but I don't see him changing his positions on the things he's been promising his supporters such as a strong economy, jobs, secure borders, national defense, ISIS. 
He knows that his loose cannon approach is an act and so do most of his followers but what they really care about is the fact that he is the only one talking about the things they care about.
 
If it's an act, it's one he's been playing for many, many years. What evidence do you have that there is a real person underneath?
 
I'm not being snarky here, I really do want to know. I would like to be less afraid.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 00:26
Of course, there's a real person underneath but I can't tell you what kind of person because I've never paid much attention to him before this campaign. And even then it was because you couldn't follow the campaign without seeing him in the news every day or hearing people discuss him. I know that he was very successful in his business ventures and people who claim to be his personal friends have had nothing but good things to say about him in his private life. 
I know that his adult children are very close to him and they respect him which is usually not the case with children from wealthy families. As the father of three adult children it says a lot when I see how they look up to him.
Anyway, my post was simply my opinion of what he needs to do if he wins the general election and eventually wants a second term.
I really can't say anything to make you feel less afraid because he will be his version of a conservative republican and from reading the posts of most people on this thread he will not be making many of you very happy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 01:21
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

I agree he would be better than Cruz, but still think that's like asking people to choose between Hitler and Stalin. I think the man is completely unhinged, which makes him worse than the usual selfish, greedy, heartless b*****ds that run as Republicans.

I think that's a bit out of proportion.  Not that I am defending Trump but that, as I said earlier, a real Hitler or Stalin v2 would be much, much worse.  All the more reason why it is important Clinton wins this election.  IF Trump gets to power and finds out running the White House isn't nearly as easy as the company he inherited from his father, THAT will really galvanise an extreme right force which neither America nor the world needs. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 09:08
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

I agree he would be better than Cruz, but still think that's like asking people to choose between Hitler and Stalin. I think the man is completely unhinged, which makes him worse than the usual selfish, greedy, heartless b*****ds that run as Republicans.

I think that's a bit out of proportion.  Not that I am defending Trump but that, as I said earlier, a real Hitler or Stalin v2 would be much, much worse.  All the more reason why it is important Clinton wins this election.  IF Trump gets to power and finds out running the White House isn't nearly as easy as the company he inherited from his father, THAT will really galvanise an extreme right force which neither America nor the world needs. 
 
As Adam Gopnik recently pointed out, "He’s not Hitler, as his wife recently said? Well, of course he isn’t. But then Hitler wasn’t Hitler—until he was. At each step of the way, the shock was tempered by acceptance. It depended on conservatives pretending he wasn’t so bad, compared with the Communists, while at the same time the militant left decided that their real enemies were the moderate leftists, who were really indistinguishable from the Nazis. The radical progressives decided that there was no difference between the democratic left and the totalitarian right and that an explosion of institutions was exactly the most thrilling thing imaginable."
 
Please stop me if any of this sounds familiar. The warning signs are clear to me. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 09:13
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

Of course, there's a real person underneath but I can't tell you what kind of person because I've never paid much attention to him before this campaign. And even then it was because you couldn't follow the campaign without seeing him in the news every day or hearing people discuss him. I know that he was very successful in his business ventures and people who claim to be his personal friends have had nothing but good things to say about him in his private life. 
I know that his adult children are very close to him and they respect him which is usually not the case with children from wealthy families. As the father of three adult children it says a lot when I see how they look up to him.
Anyway, my post was simply my opinion of what he needs to do if he wins the general election and eventually wants a second term.
I really can't say anything to make you feel less afraid because he will be his version of a conservative republican and from reading the posts of most people on this thread he will not be making many of you very happy.
 
On the contrary, the profiles I've read all emphasize how notoriously thin-skinned he is and the lengths to which he is willing to go to retaliate against anyone who he perceives has disrespected him.  It's one thing to go scoring points off journalists in the press, but imagine when he has recourse to more potent weapons?  He has already threatened to abridge first amendment rights to muzzle negative press accounts:
 
Feeling maligned by the media, Donald Trump is threatening to weaken First Amendment protections for reporters if he were president and make it easier for him to sue them.

“I love free press. I think it’s great,” he said Saturday on Fox News Channel, before quickly adding, “We ought to open up the libel laws, and I’m going to do that.”

The changes envisioned by the celebrity businessman turned Republican front-runner would mean that “when they write purposely negative and horrible and false articles, we can sue them and win lots of money,” he said at a rally Friday in Fort Worth, Texas.

Trump added that, should he win the election, news organizations that have criticized him will “have problems.” He specifically cited The New York Times and The Washington Post.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2016 at 09:18
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

I agree he would be better than Cruz, but still think that's like asking people to choose between Hitler and Stalin. I think the man is completely unhinged, which makes him worse than the usual selfish, greedy, heartless b*****ds that run as Republicans.

I think that's a bit out of proportion.  Not that I am defending Trump but that, as I said earlier, a real Hitler or Stalin v2 would be much, much worse.  All the more reason why it is important Clinton wins this election.  IF Trump gets to power and finds out running the White House isn't nearly as easy as the company he inherited from his father, THAT will really galvanise an extreme right force which neither America nor the world needs. 
 
As Adam Gopnik recently pointed out, "He’s not Hitler, as his wife recently said? Well, of course he isn’t. But then Hitler wasn’t Hitler—until he was. At each step of the way, the shock was tempered by acceptance. It depended on conservatives pretending he wasn’t so bad, compared with the Communists, while at the same time the militant left decided that their real enemies were the moderate leftists, who were really indistinguishable from the Nazis. The radical progressives decided that there was no difference between the democratic left and the totalitarian right and that an explosion of institutions was exactly the most thrilling thing imaginable."
 
Please stop me if any of this sounds familiar. The warning signs are clear to me. 

Once again, you seem to argue on extremes.  I am NOT accepting Trump and I thought my comment made that pretty clear.  I am just warning of what could come to pass if Trump gets elected.  Not because he will be the next Hitler but because he will fail and his followers will then seek out a REAL fanatic who's actually deranged enough to follow up on those promises.  Trump climbed down from saying they should temporarily stop allowing Muslims into America to saying it was just an idea/a suggestion.  Trump has already become a politician, he badly wants to become President.  Hitler was an ideologue.  Ideologues are much more dangerous because their convictions, whether rightly or wrongly held, are much more powerful.  What IS Trump's ideology?  To use his favourite words, "I don't know".  He just says whatever sells and tries to keep it below four syllables.  It's a bad joke on democracy but it's still not as dangerous as a real fanatic grabbing power.  Of course - and this may sound very pessimistic - but if the people want a right wing fanatic, that's what they are going to get.  This is not just re America, there is a general disgruntlement in the air which is fertile ground for right wingers to exploit.  I am very worried about the future, esp the next 10 years or so.  Looks like it will be messy.
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