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Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28064
Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:10
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
... All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.
Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.
Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.
It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!
Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?
Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.
I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13502
Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:19
I think they were innovators along with Queensryche and Fates Warning when it comes to Prog-Metal. I do believe all three were influenced by Rush though who should get more credit than these other three, but these three did lay the groundwork/rules or whatever you want to call it for what is known as Prog-Metal.
Those negative reviews someone put up have an element of truth as far as i'm concerned, in that I detest when Dream Theater do the ballad thing, and they do it almost on every album! A huge negative for me but on the other hand man these guys can play and I do like when they light it up.
Joined: May 25 2010
Location: Athens,Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:52
I think that they are both.
They have released two masterpieces though.
And they inspired a lot of people to play music so,I thank
them for that.
Some men are hunting hawks,some men are busy bees,
some louder than a storm,others silent as the trees,
but we're all dressed up as one,noone stands out in the crowd,
We're strangers in this town.
As far as Progressive metal....they stand like the statue of Ozymandias (before it was eroded by time) an imperious exponent of a genre that I stumbled across in the early noughties (like the traveller from an antique Land)...and read the plaque on the plinth......Here is Dream Theater.....Band of Bands in the prog metal genre...
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!.....
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
Posted: June 10 2014 at 15:59
richardh wrote:
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
... All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.
Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.
Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.
It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!
Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?
Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.
I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.
BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?
I was thinking the same thing reading that post...I kinda get it. There is a lot of music I do not like but can appreciate the composition, structure, playing ability basically the song writing where I can nod my head. A lot of DT is that way for me, like ELP...bombastic but I appreciate what they are doing. I suppose its why I love ToT so much, it is a deviation from the previous album and not a preview of the next. They wanted to do metal with a prog flare and it worked, at least for me.
I can spin ELP-Works I, and think GOD!! What were they thinking!!?? But can appreciate the playing ability enough to understand why, so for that they get some like from me...Its not Tarkus love though
LTE for me is excellent stuff, I almost feel that for me the DT members were at their top form on those two albums. I regularly watch on YT the live shows in LA and NYC, it really looks like they are having a ton of fun!
Now, last two times I saw DT with Portnoy, he was not having fun..I thought he was...but since seeing him after the break on two tours with Neal Morse and the Kaleidoscope tour, I think he is having a lot of fun right now.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
Posted: June 10 2014 at 16:43
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.
Actually, that's what I did, and I'm being completely serious too.
Within a couple months of owning all of DT's albums I had gone out and gotten all the Rush, Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and ELP albums I could afford, and even a King Crimson album. For me, Dream Theater was a gateway to prog. I doubt I am the only one either.
I have learned a lot about DT (and prog music in general) from posts by numerous PA members but the fact that DT were able to motivate someone to move beyond the Prog-metal genre and into bands of the "classic" prog rock era is most impressive. I am not genre or era specific myself. The last two albums I listened to were 1968's prog-folk self titled Pentanlge album and this year's prog-tech/metal Cynic album titled Kindly Bent To Free US. So to see any group inspire someone else to cross the boundary lines is awesome indeed.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
Posted: June 10 2014 at 19:13
Dellinger wrote:
infandous wrote:
I hope those ridiculous "reviews" were posted for humor, as I don't really see the relevance here.........one uneducated listeners opinion is about as good as any other I suppose.However, as to the question at hand.........my personal opinion, since I first heard Images and Words in the mid-90's is that they were mostly imitators. Some Rush riffs and drumming, some Pink Floyd atmosphere, some 70's fusion type instrumental workouts, 80's big hair band vocals, all mashed together with the "innovation" of metal distortion and double bass drumming.On the other hand, nobody had really done that up to that point (though it could be argued that Metallica created far more interesting "progressive metal" music, back in the 80's, than DT ever came up with later on).I don't think you can really overstate how important DT was (and maybe still is) to modern prog, though. A lot of people on this site, and that I've met at prog festivals over the years, were turned onto prog rock via DT. So whether or not they are originals or imitators (like most bands, I think they are somewhere in between), they certainly have had popularity and exposure well beyond the vast majority of most modern prog bands. Regardless of my personal opinion of them, they must have done something right.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Metallica ever went truly progressive. Perhaps they just got close, but no more. Besides, I find most of their songs rather tedious (though there are indeed some songs from them I really love), while I do have loads of songs from DT that I really love a lot.
Just for the record, I agree that there is nothing prog about Metallica and was surprised to see their name come up so often!! But they do rock!! Just Kidding!
I saw DT open up for Yes on their 35th Anniversary tour. My friend turned to me during DT's set and said "this is the worst music I've ever heard in my life". I said, "I agree".
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12732
Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:13
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
For a band that was formed in the mid-80's they are releasing some mighty good music. Even just looking at the big 6 prog acts of the 70's, how does their output from the 90's compare to Dream Theater's most recent albums? Yes and Pink Floyd had good decades (though PF only had one new studio album). King Crimson had also released some good music, though under different names. Jethro Tull released new music, though as far as I know, it went kinda unnoticed. ELP and Genesis released some notoriously bad albums (the rating speak for them, not me). These dates correspond with where DT is right now in their career, considering they are 20+ years removed from possibly their best album, I would argue that they are still doing very well and releasing some good music. Are they still innovating? That's debatable, and not very likely. But the only thing they are imitating at this point is themselves.
I do feel they have kind of run out of ideas. But you just hit the nail putting their carreers into this perspective. I still think they should slow their pace and put more thought and work... and perhaps a bit of rest into their new albums so they can come with some better work. Also, you might add that this band has been very stable line-up wise for a band that has lasted this long.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12732
Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:21
rogerthat wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Another point is they have a tendency to rely on some cliched modes of developing songs. E.g The way Surrounded opens with some cheesy singing over piano and moves on to a fairly hard rocking section but over rather 'happy' chords is very 80s. That is also pretty typical of metal. The 80s defined metal's horizons for a very long time and that is probably still the case to an extent so 80s modes of songwriting are very popular in metal. Ballads HAVE to follow the power ballad pattern; there's no room for vulnerability, longing or tenderness as those are not very 'metal' qualities. You'd notice that while Petrucci is immensely talented, a lot of his solos follow the patterns that many 80s metal/hard rock guitarists favoured. Because if he tried to play like Hackett or Rothery, the fans wouldn't like it. LaBrie's overwrought singing also relates to this, though I wonder if he can indeed sing any other way, given how he renders even classics like Time. According to ex-Fates Warning vocalist Jon Arch, when he auditioned for Dream Theater, they tried to get him to sing in a way he didn't enjoy because that's what they wanted. They knew their audience well from the start and stuck to the winning formula. What I am saying is that is why you may be left with the feeling they don't have a particularly identifiable sound because it evokes 80s a lot.
I guess you could say LaBrie can sing very high or very softly. Though if he wants (or needs) to sing loud, he will go for that horrible high pitch of his. However, when he sings softly, such as he does with many of the other Pink Floyd covers, I actually rather enjoy his singing.
LaBrie has a great voice and astonishing range. The problem is when he sings softly, he can try too hard to emphasise the emotions. The Hey You cover is a good example. When he sings in a more metal, loud way, his diction gets battered high up (chorus of Caught in a web).
Actually, I like him better when he sings softly. Even though he may have an astonishing range, for me he is just plain annoying when he goes too high. He lacks the sort of personality of other high pitched singers such as Robert Plant, Jon Anderson, or even Geddy Lee, etc, that I really like.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
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Points: 12732
Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:24
richardh wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
It's a bit of both. One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet. Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior. Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to. (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead. Not all metalheads, including self, are like that). They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists. Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes. They want a metal equivalent of these bands. That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s. Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time. Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes. DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more. In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality. But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance. I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words. They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh. And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.
Interesting comments but I don't agree that Dream Theater carried on copying Images and Words. I think their albums certainly up to about Octavarium were distinct in style. Train Of Thought was almost a complete curve ball some might say. I think they got a bit lost after that though. All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.
If you haven't liked what they have been up to lately (perhaps I could assume you think they have run out of ideas). I don't think the new album would change your mind. Try listening to "Illumination Theory" on YouTube, if you don't like that one, and you didn't like their previous album either, then you can give up on it. That song is the one that's a bit different, the rest of the album is very similar to the one before.
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12732
Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:38
Mellotron Storm wrote:
I think they were innovators along with Queensryche and Fates Warning when it comes to Prog-Metal. I do believe all three were influenced by Rush though who should get more credit than these other three, but these three did lay the groundwork/rules or whatever you want to call it for what is known as Prog-Metal.
Those negative reviews someone put up have an element of truth as far as i'm concerned, in that I detest when Dream Theater do the ballad thing, and they do it almost on every album! A huge negative for me but on the other hand man these guys can play and I do like when they light it up.
I too dislike most of their ballads, and in a great part they are the reason I wouldn't give 5 stars to many of their albums that I otherwise love. The few ballads from them that I do like were from the Moore era, without him they seem to have lost the talent for writing softer stuff (Space Dye Vest being the best example for me... though that's perhaps a bit harder than a ballad should be).
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12732
Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:41
richardh wrote:
moshkito wrote:
richardh wrote:
... All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.
Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.
Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.
It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!
Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?
Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.
I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.
BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?
Dream Theater without LaBrie? I just got to love LTE. Now, really, they have many songs that I really love. The one thing I'm not so fond of is their over-use of improvs, and perhaps also that their albums were a bit rushed. Perhaps now that Portnoy is out of DT they could have a good excuse to reform LTE and do some new album... that would be really wonderful.
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20624
Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:56
richardh wrote:
........BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?
I like LTE...but don't own a single DT album...... go figure.
I'm sure DT have influenced some , as a poster mentioned, to buy other classic prog and that's a good thing since imo those bands are more interesting than DT.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111
Posted: June 10 2014 at 23:30
Can't say I've never been a big fan of Dream Theater, but I did like Images and Words. I thought that was a very good album that wasn't so 'in your face' and actually had some beautiful moments like Another Day for example.
“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
Joined: September 08 2009
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 850
Posted: June 11 2014 at 02:44
Prog innovators. They kick-started the whole modern prog movement. I know Marillion bravely carried the flag through the Dark Ages, but DT brought about the new Golden Age, a more fruitful era of prog that continues to this day and beyond.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
Posted: June 11 2014 at 08:44
Mirror Image wrote:
Can't say I've never been a big fan of Dream Theater, but I did like Images and Words. I thought that was a very good album that wasn't so 'in your face' and actually had some beautiful moments like Another Day for example.
I agree that is one of their great songs. 1st album with singer LaBrie, so first for the classic line up some would say. Strange how so many bands have a debut album (in some form) that leaves an impression on someone that is never repeated, for whatever reason.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20609
Posted: June 11 2014 at 09:40
RoeDent wrote:
Prog innovators. They kick-started the whole modern prog movement. I know Marillion bravely carried the flag through the Dark Ages, but DT brought about the new Golden Age, a more fruitful era of prog that continues to this day and beyond.
I've read similiar posts to this effect and agree that they innovated a sub genre but I still do not see what that has to do with being musically innovative and perhaps that paradox is reason enough to close this thread.
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Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators
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moshkito wrote:
Just Kidding!
