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Any Colour You Like 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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 Posted: July 26 2009 at 16:12 |
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 18540
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Posted: July 26 2009 at 19:19 |
 p0mt3 wrote:
And that's also why I think any band that purposely sets out to be a "prog'' band, they end up not sounding all that great, because they miss the point entirely. (Dream Theater clones are among some of the best/worst examples of this, you agree?) |
Well said.
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 06:47 |
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 07:17 |
Back on topic, i quite like :
Zappa's POP (Dansing Fool / Baby Snake ....ect.)
Missing P - Gentle Giant's not THAT Prog albums
I dont like Wall/Cut compared to earlier floyd
But i think Momentarely Laps of reason is OK
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:12 |
Avant Pop?????? That sounds like an obvious contradiction to me. Sort of like saying an intelligent idiot?
Logan wrote:
I thought the topic was going to be saying that Progressive Rock does not equal progressive rock.
Anyway, I'm less likely to think of "bands" as Prog, or not, as "music" as Prog, or not. Though I'd pretty much like to scrap the Prog term altogether.
I think of War by Slapp Happy/ Henry Cow as more avant pop than Prog (in fact I think of Slapp Happy primarily as avant pop), but I like it.
Magma's "I Must Return" is poppy, but I like it.
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Jim
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:39 |
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Pop, a stupid music?
Should I remind you that "Pop music" only means "Popular music" in opposition to savant music? Progressive rock is part of Pop music.
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American Khatru
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 28 2009
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 732
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:46 |
tdfloyd wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Ha! I think their best album is 'A Trick of the Tail'  |
I'll second that! |
Hoofa, it's spreading!! These paper breather masks don't help!
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 Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:49 |
Prog isn't very popular though is it?
CPicard wrote:
Pop, a stupid music?
Should I remind you that "Pop music" only means "Popular music" in opposition to savant music? Progressive rock is part of Pop music.
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:56 |
I just think that music that is written by a formula in order to match another formula that is used purely for the purpose of making money is stupid. Of course this is just my opinion. When money becomes the prime driving force, real art and creativity goes out the window. 
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 08:58 |
Actually we did use the term progressive rock back in the 70's when we talked about Gentle Giant and ELP. We also used the terms Art rock, Classical Rock as well. I guess it's hard to use categories to define things nowadays because everyone insists so much on putting stuff in little boxes.
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
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Jim
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 09:42 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Prog isn't very popular though is it?
CPicard wrote:
Pop, a stupid music?
Should I remind you that "Pop music" only means "Popular music" in opposition to savant music? Progressive rock is part of Pop music.
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Doesn't "popular" come from the same roots as "people"? It's like "folk music": the music coming from... Well, folks. If I'm not wrong, the English word "folk" shares roots with the German word "volk". It's the same thing with "popular", "population", "people"... English words coming from the French linguage.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18058
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 10:07 |
ProGR72 wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
If you are going to listen to ANY band ... and all you want to hear is some "prog song/composition" ... I highly recommend that you stop listening to any music ... and go play in a band yourself!
You are placing your expectations on other people and expecting them to play what you want to hear and see. And there is no one out there, man or woman, that will do that, I'm not sure that it is even possible at all !!! ... no one, not even in "prog-land" is doing something just for you, or anyone else ... it is totally IMPOSSIBLE to saitisfy an audience like that ... period.
You must understand this, and see why is it that we have a thread in here where people got upset when Genesis told off some idiot fan, and other examples. You can not, satisfy everyone!
And please, stop expecting people to serve you with grapes and Playboy models ... when you get that rich adn that far, go ahead and make your own band and maybe we will listen to it ... and mandate that you play a "prog-song" ... and then watch the fanzines and everyone else drop you like a hot potato.
You have to take a stand, and it is not a fan department to take that stand ... you are either a musician and an artist, or a fan ...
Now, you must decide if you want to listen to "MUSIC" ... or just some silly idea like pop, rock, prog, metal ... a commercial division that is designed to help you find the stuff that sounds the same ... so you can go spend you dollars on it!
You have to decide if the musicians you want to listen to are morons or intelligent ... which ones are in there for the "hit" to get your attention, and which ones are in there ... for the music and the love of the music ... and it's not about "prog" .. it's about how they can and want to express themselves.
There are times when a song or two will sound less interesting to your ear because it is in one scale and has 16 bars and repeats like a simple song ... so what?
Are you so programmed that you have to listen to only one thing? Not the person behind it?
Sad ... sad ...
(Sorry, the tone is not angry, just trying to be clear so you can see why some musicians get upset when people get angry at them for doing a hit ... !)
Edited by moshkito - July 27 2009 at 10:29
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LanCaiHe
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 10:28 |
 So True. I guess that's why I joined the band I belong to now. When writing for our new CD I asked the leader if hethought the old fans will like it or not, he replied...write what you want. You simply cannot please everyone and why should you try to. You should try to please yourself first.
moshkito wrote:
ProGR72 wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
If you are going to listen to ANY band ... and all you want to hear is some "prog song/composition" ... I highly recommend that you stop listening to any music ... and go play in a band yourself!
You are placing your expectations on other people and expecting them to play what you want to hear and see. And there is no one out there, man or woman, that will do that ... no one, even in "prog-land" is doing something just for you, or anyone else ... it is totally IMPOSSIBLE to saitisfy an audience like that ... period.
You must understand this, and see why is it that we have a thread in here where people got upset when Genesis told off some idiot fan, and other examples. You can not, satisfy everyone!
And please, stop expecting people to serve you with grapes and Playboy models ... when you get that rich adn that far, go ahead and make your own band and maybe we will listen to it ... and mandate that you play a "prog-song" ... and then watch the fanzines and everyone else drop you like a hot potato.
You have to take a stand, and it is not a fan department to take that stand ... you are either a musician and an artist, or a fan ... |
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Jim
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 10:34 |
Blacksword wrote:
Ha! I think their best album is 'A Trick of the Tail' |
That's pretty much the case with me too.
However, there was some Gabriel-era Genesis that was not Prog as well.
Examples: Time Table I Know What I Like Harlequin
Edited by StyLaZyn - July 27 2009 at 10:37
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18058
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 11:02 |
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
The term did not begin to make itself "known" or "used" until the mid-eighties and probably later.
It was not "prog" then and it is not "prog" now ... the only thing that separated these musicians fro pop music, was that they had a lot less of an interest in "pop music" than they did in the scholarly desire to do something better with their instruments than play crap and cheap pop music, most of which takes absolutely no talent to play at all.
Combined with the fact that the majority of those musicians were really educated and knowledgeable about music it is no surprise that they would want to create a "poem", a "symphony", a "lieder" ... and not something that is called "prog" ...
No one, in their right mind sets out to play ... "prog" ... they will be dead before the first album is out! Not to mention trashed senseless in this area since no one even knows what it is ... why would someone create music just because of one "style"? ... that is not even what making music is all about at all!
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 976
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 12:06 |
I think many modern prog bands fail at trying to be "all prog", which means to make songs with the prog clichés just to fit to the genre (and it applies to bands in other genres as well, but to a smaller extent). There were many prog bands with songs no longer than 5 minutes and hardly any time change, but they are prog because they sound alike other prog bands and were lumped in the same genre for commercial purposes. Unfortunately, prog has become synonym of 20-minute epics, multi-part suites and long solos for many, so many bands think that putting together 20-minutes of music with long solos and time changes is to be a great prog composer, when sometimes it is to be a terrible music composer.
After all, music is just an arrangement of sounds that are pleasing to hear. But when it comes to music market, it is not rare to see bands that "sell out" or are obliged to do something just for selling more or fitting to a niche. Then, we have both the musicians that are creative but do something more formulaic and predictable to sell more and musicians who do not have talent to do music of an specific genre but incorporate many elements artificially just to say that his music fits that genre and fit to a niche.
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LanCaiHe
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Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 12:50 |
Everything is formulaic no matter what musical style you are writing in. If a classical composer writes a Sonata, he is using a formula, if he writes a fugue, etc. It's all a "form". Pop music is the same way. Everything has a musical form.
I can only tell you what I think based on my own experiences of growing up as a teen in the seventies and listening to progressive rock back then in Pittsburgh, PA. I don't know what it was like in other parts of the world, or the US for that matter.
First thing is that back then we DID call it PROGRESSIVE ROCK. That was the term, and we definitely said it all the time. What is more "now" is the term "PROG". We did not use that term back in the 70's.
For me, (and I'm sure many people will disagree with me here), you can narrow prog down to a few main characteristics, and I've heard this repeated by others as well.
1. Prog is based, usually, on Western Classical music and not the blues. Not that it cannot have those elements since it grew out of rock, but it has much more in common with Western classical music.
2. The songs are longer than the usual 3 minute wonders you hear on popular radio.
3. The songs have lyrics about more lofty, or not, subjects other than "I love your lips, love your thighs...they make me high" kinda stuff! ;-)
4. People are allowed to show off their individual musical skills.
I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to follow or at least use those rules for a stepping stone if they were going to write a prog tune? I love 20 minute epics! Yes I agree that it does not make it good, but many who write 3 minute songs cannot write either. I do understand what you are saying, and sure, if you don't have the technique to write and play something of that magnitude you are better off not doing it.
akin wrote:
I think many modern prog bands fail at trying to be "all prog", which means to make songs with the prog clichés just to fit to the genre (and it applies to bands in other genres as well, but to a smaller extent). There were many prog bands with songs no longer than 5 minutes and hardly any time change, but they are prog because they sound alike other prog bands and were lumped in the same genre for commercial purposes. Unfortunately, prog has become synonym of 20-minute epics, multi-part suites and long solos for many, so many bands think that putting together 20-minutes of music with long solos and time changes is to be a great prog composer, when sometimes it is to be a terrible music composer.
After all, music is just an arrangement of sounds that are pleasing to hear. But when it comes to music market, it is not rare to see bands that "sell out" or are obliged to do something just for selling more or fitting to a niche. Then, we have both the musicians that are creative but do something more formulaic and predictable to sell more and musicians who do not have talent to do music of an specific genre but incorporate many elements artificially just to say that his music fits that genre and fit to a niche. |
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Jim
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LanCaiHe
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 20 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 12:54 |
Sorry to differ with you, but at least in my hometown in the 70's we did refer to ELP, Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, etc. as "Progressive Rock." It might be different where you are from. I've only in the last 5 years or so heard it referred to as Prog. But I do agree with you!
moshkito wrote:
kingfriso wrote:
In the classic '70 progressive period the word Progressive wasn't used concerning music. Now the term is used, a lot of bands don't turn out to be so progressive... this is quite a puzzling problem |
The term did not begin to make itself "known" or "used" until the mid-eighties and probably later.
It was not "prog" then and it is not "prog" now ... the only thing that separated these musicians fro pop music, was that they had a lot less of an interest in "pop music" than they did in the scholarly desire to do something better with their instruments than play crap and cheap pop music, most of which takes absolutely no talent to play at all.
Combined with the fact that the majority of those musicians were really educated and knowledgeable about music it is no surprise that they would want to create a "poem", a "symphony", a "lieder" ... and not something that is called "prog" ...
No one, in their right mind sets out to play ... "prog" ... they will be dead before the first album is out! Not to mention trashed senseless in this area since no one even knows what it is ... why would someone create music just because of one "style"? ... that is not even what making music is all about at all! |
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Jim
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Tsevir Leirbag
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 03 2009
Location: Montréal
Status: Offline
Points: 8321
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 15:05 |
King By-Tor wrote:
Personally I felt that Fear Of A Blank Planet really needed a good 4-minute rocker. |
Maybe... Even if the album's very good the way it is.
Who said that? I did'nt!
moshkito wrote:
ProGR72 wrote:
Sometimes, I think there are prog songs (made by prog bands), that are not prog. Most of the time, I don't like it because it sounds commercial or even really like popular music.
What do you think about it?/What are the "non-prog" prog songs that you like/you dislike? |
If you are going to listen to ANY band ... and all you want to hear is some "prog song/composition" ... I highly recommend that you stop listening to any music ... and go play in a band yourself!
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King By-Tor wrote:
And let's not forget that one pop song on an album does not immediately ruin a good prog album completely, people.  |
And that is a personnal attack, you don't know what I listen to. I'm NOT "programmed", to use your words, and I don't listen to "only one thing".
moshkito wrote:
Are you so programmed that you have to listen to only one thing? Not the person behind it?
Sad ... sad ...
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Edited by ProGR72 - July 27 2009 at 15:27
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Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira
- Paul Éluard
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 8138
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Posted: July 27 2009 at 15:40 |
LanCaiHe wrote:
Prog isn't very popular though is it? |
Wasn't prog popular in the seventies ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Prog's not prog.
