Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 00:32

US-SAUDI WAR ON YEMEN HAS KILLED 377,000 PEOPLE – UN ESTIMATE

A United Nations report projected that the death toll from Yemen's war will reach 377,000 by the end of 2021, including those killed as a result of indirect and direct causes.

https://qahtannews.com/en/2022/02/26/us-saudi-war-on-yemen-has-killed-377000-people-un-estimate/

Archisorcerus View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 01:02

^ Cindy, I appreciate your concern about things most of the Westerners ignore. Honestly, even my country, overwhelmingly, is either largely defiant of or ignorant about this horrible situation in the Middle East, despite our geographical connection to the region. When I was a high school teacher, one of my students was an Afghani, and he said that the bombings in his country happen EVERY DAY. The Western media, and even the Turkish media report them from time to time, and people think that such things happen often occasionally, and sometimes intensively; and all the events are reported. This is a very sad situation. I follow such news on Twitter. That is the best I can do.

Back on topic, there are many interpretations coming out of many experts from many countries, concerning the current war in Ukraine. I've yet to see even 5% of them can be seen in the mainstream media. Especially the ones that would really disturb most of the Americans seem to have no chance.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 04 2022 at 01:12

tigerfeet

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 01:16

Archisorcerus wrote:

^ Cindy, I appreciate your concern about things most of the Westerners ignore. Honestly, even my country, overwhelmingly, is either largely defiant or ignorant about this horrible situation in the Middle East, despite our geographical connection to the region. When I was a high school teacher, one of my students was Afghani, and he said that the bombings in his country happen EVERY DAY. The Western media, and even Turkish media report them from time to time, and the people think that all the events are reported. This is a very sad situation. I follow such news on Twitter. That is the best I can do.

Back on topic, there are many interpretations coming out of many experts from many countries, concerning the current war in Ukraine. I've yet to see even 5% of them can be seen in the mainstream media. Especially the ones that would really disturb most of the Americans seem to have no chance.

I think you summed up a small portion perfectly.

I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you. Robin Williams.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 04:12

No Ukrainian source has used the term GENOCIDE , preferring the words DEFIANT RESISTANCE . But Putin stated on February 24, 2022 in an address to the nation announcing the attack on Ukraine

Ethnic Russians face “genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime.”

I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.

Raff

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 04:35

Maybe if we toned it down just a little? Thomas, to all intents and purposes you called Lorenzo a Fascist, which is probably not going to go down very well :D. Now I don't agree with some of his positions, but I don't believe for a second that he is a Mussolini sympathizer (as your mention of Piazza Venezia implies).

Genocide = deliberate killing of a people/ethnic group. According to this etymology, the Holocaust was a genocide, while the deaths of over 20 million Russians in WWII was not. It is not a question of mere numbers. Since Putin said yesterday that Russians and Ukrainians are the same people, we can draw the conclusion that he does not want to annihilate Ukrainians altogether. Who knows? I don't think he is acting like a sane person any longer (provided he ever was).

And finally.... What the US did/are doing in the Middle East is unforgivable. However, as the saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right.

tszirmay

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 04:50

Raff wrote:

And finally.... What the US did/are doing in the Middle East is unforgivable. However, as the saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right.

Obviously, he is not a political fascist but as a wordsmith/orator , he is bullying to say the least, and not just with me. I hinted to his rather authoritarian, wholly biased, contradictory and overtly imperative tone, that refuses (after 2 attempts) to verify and just fact-check his wild and patently false rants. The resemblance to Mussolini is that he is preaching falsehoods from some holier-than-thou pulpit that have nothing to do with facts, not even bothering to verify what he is saying (Re: Nato vs Yalta, Nato vs Srebenica). I felt offended with the words" let me remind you" and "once again" . In fact, he should tone down, as I fully understand the notion of action/reaction. When he verifies those Nato facts, and acknowledges his failings I will tone down completely.

Edited by tszirmay - March 04 2022 at 04:52

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Archisorcerus View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 04:51

Raff wrote:

And finally.... What the US did/are doing in the Middle East is unforgivable. However, as the saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right.

Firstly and foremostly, wonderful to see you back too, Raffaella. Heart

About the topic, I was actually not talking about the "wrongs" of the USA in the Middle East, as even the ignorant people are aware of them. (Some sickly support it though.) The situation seems like more sophisticated. The claims darkly portraying the USA's attempts to provoke Taiwan to gain superiority over China are being talked about by some experts outside the Anglophone zone. And these claims are tied to the war in Ukraine, in subtle and also not-so-subtle ways. I fear it could be true. I hope this will not end in a 3rd world war that could devastate large portions of the World, and the Earth. You know, today's technology can literally even destroy our planet!

Archisorcerus View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 05:13

The link: https://twitter.com/InModernRussia/status/1499716053592596492 (The interview is in Russian language.)

SteveG

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 05:37

jamesbaldwin wrote:

@tszirmay

After the Second World War, in the West (USA) there was NATO, in the East (USSR) the Warsaw Pact.

Now there is no longer the USSR, and there is no longer the Warsaw Pact. Indeed, Warsaw is the capital of a state that joined NATO like all of Eastern Europe, from north to south, which is why I say that Russia is surrounded: what matters is European Russia.

Europe has only a monetary and economic union, and having incorporated the states of the East, which have very little to do with the states of the West, it will NEVER have its own internal and international policy.

In short, the European Union has gone bankrupt, it only works for banks and the free market.

In the former Yugoslavia, I repeat to you, the major crimes of ethnic cleansing took place after NATO entered the war. In that years, I was going to demonstrate against Italy's entry into the war.

As for Ukraine, it is since the 2014 coup that I fear we would have entered the war, especially after the repression of Russian areas by the Ukrainian military.

Understanding Russia's reasons does not mean justifying the invasion, but understanding what the solution could be. And I think Sergio Romano is right about this: the solution is NOT to let Ukraine join NATO and not even the EU.

I mentioned Sergio Romano because he is the exact opposite of a politician. He was an ambassador, he has been involved in diplomacy for 70 years, and he knows the US (he married an American woman) and Russia very well. He is a historian, he has no agenda to respect. And above all he has never had any sympathies for Russia (he is a conservative, he is righ-wing in short). Precisely for this reason I mentioned it. But I could mention other Italian left-wing intellectuals or historians who think like him. Of course this does not mean that he is right, what he says is not written in the Bible or the Koran.

Simply, I believe that if wars are to be avoided, NATO should be dissolved, the American military bases in Europe should be evacuated, Europe should find a political union, even dividing itself between West and East, while remaining economically united, the United Nations have failed and should be abolished and reformed all over again: all wars start from the 5 nations who sit on the security council. In short, we are in another historical, new era, which no longer has anything to do with the balances that arose in Yalta.

The Soviet Union may have been dissolved in 1991, but no one in their right mind thought this was a long a term condition and that former Soviet KGB types would not try to restore Russia back to a communist regime. The continual moral bankruptcy of it's leaders for 70 years was also a concern going forward, so NATO was not going anywhere, and indeed, with the current situation, proved to be sage.

As far as all this talk of genocide, it is not the prerequisite for war crimes, as follows:

War crimes are defined in the statute that established the International Criminal Court, which includes:

Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, such as:
1. Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
2. Torture or inhumane treatment
3. Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property
4. Forcing a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of a hostile power
5. Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial
6. Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer
7. Taking hostages
8. Directing attacks against civilians
9. Directing attacks against humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers
10. Killing a surrendered combatant
11. Misusing a flag of truce
12. Settlement of occupied territory
13. Deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory
14. Using poison weapons
15. Using civilians as shields
16. Using child soldiers
17. Firing upon a Combat Medic with clear insignia.
The following acts as part of a non-international conflict:
1. Murder, cruel or degrading treatment and torture
2. Directing attacks against civilians, humanitarian workers or UN peacekeepers
The following acts as part of an international conflict:
1. Taking hostages
2. Summary execution
3. Pillage
4. Rape, sexual slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy

However the court only has jurisdiction over these crimes where they are "part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes".^[11]

It's a shame we have to have these types of discussions, but you have enacted them, and we have to respond.

Edited by SteveG - March 04 2022 at 05:41

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micky

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 06:12

cheers

to the death of the Russian economy...

https://twitter.com/tjournal/status/1499300107837128704?s=20&t=Pt6o2azAJ5zeYF-bt1vdlA

Edited by micky - March 04 2022 at 06:13

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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 06:36

^There are millions of Russians who do not agree with Putin's war.

Not cool to cheer for their poverty. They suffer also.

micky

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 06:48

I ain't a cool guy of guy Grumpy.. and if takes economic destruction to encourage Russians to turn on Putin to end this war.. then I'm cheering it with no second thought.

the only way this war ends is if Russia turns on Putin.. and removes him. He lives in a golden place... a 70% increase in food prices which some are reporting won't affect him at all.

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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:00

Since you have all the answers, micky, you need to take out Putin.

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:15

in my youth Grumpy... in my youth... I'd probably already have hopped a plane to Europe there and got myself to Ukraine. Not surprised that some seem to be doing just that... the bravery of the Ukrainians has truly been inspirational. They aren't just fighting for themselves .. but for all of us.

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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:22

@Easy Money

@tszirmay

@raff

@ Steve

1) For what it's worth, I am a left-wing nonviolent pacifist, ecologist and post-Marxist. My political education is based on Marx, Gandhi, James Baldwin, MLKing, Mandela, Erich Fromm and the Frankfurt School, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, liberation theologians, Israeli nonviolent pacifists like Jeff Halper etc.

2) For NATO crimes in the former Yugoslavia, I recommend Chosmky's books, which expose both American and European NATO propaganda.

3) For the question of genocide, I am sorry that here we want to talk nonsense about genocide, without knowing what it is.

Genocide consists in wanting to destroy an entire population. With the Shoah, up to 6 million Jews were killed: this is the reason why we talk about genocide. If 60,000 jews had been killed, there would be no question of genocide. It is not difficult to understand.

The Native Americans, the Incas, the Aztecs, the Maya, the Indians have suffered genocide: between 50 and 70 million people have died.

The Armenian genocide was about one and a half million or 2 million of people, if I remember well.

The genocide in Rwanda is about 1 million people.

So whoever accuses me of untruthfulness on this issue simply does not know what he is talking about. Unfortunately, for those who want to accuse me, I express myself quite precisely.

If we talk about genocide in Ukraine by the Russians, as some are doing, I reply that to talk about genocide it takes millions of deaths, and the intention to destroy the Ukrainian people.

These two factors dont exist: less than 500 civilians have died so far, so talking about genocide for a nation of 44 millions of people is RIDICULOUS.

It is ridiculous that even Russia talks about genocide in connection with the crimes committed by the Ukrainian army and its neo-Nazi battalions, but this is war propaganda.

In Italy we celebrate the Day of Remembrance where the Italians killed by Tito's partisans during and after the Second World War are remembered. It is about 5,000-10,000 people. Nobody says that the Tito regime has committed a genocide of the Italians.

I hope I explained myself.

4) Yalta: I don't even understand what the issue is, I said that after the end of the Second World War, NATO and the Warsaw Pact were born. And in fact the war ended in 1945, NATO was born in 1949, and the Warsaw Pact was born in 1955, so even in that case, FIRST a Western military alliance was formed against Russia and AFTER did Russia form its military alliance to respond to NATO.

5) War crimes are of various kinds and have practically been done in every modern war because they involve killing civilians. There is talk of crimes against humanity for both the killing of tens of civilians and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, so the difference can be huge. Russia has killed a few hundred civilians so far (and Ukrainian soldiers have also killed civilians).

Now, if we stick to the killing of civilians, I remind everyone that the American and European wars in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan have killed many but many more than Russia is doing now.

6) I am against any war, and just as I was against the war in the former Yugoslavia, the war in Iraq (since that of Bush senior in 1991), the war in Afghanistan, I am also against this war where this time it is Russia. which is imitating NATO. In fact, when they asked to Lavrov about the killing of Ukrainian civilians, he sarcastically replied that Russia has no civilian targets, but there are side effects, a term invented in the West to justify NATO wars (and Israeli crimes when bombing occupied territories).

In other words, Russia is saying: you Westerners have done what you want so far, now we do too.

Two wrong things do no justice.

This is why I am against this war but I am also against any enlargement of NATO to the East. If,

if I had to speak by slogans I would say

No War in Ukraine

No Nato

Stop arms trafficking

Sovereign and neutral Ukraine

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

micky

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:27

tszirmay wrote:

micky wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Astounding footage from UATV assuming it's genuine and these soldiers are not being coerced [which they certainly could be], this is not at all the Russian army I remember from the post-Soviet '90s --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6v3nnxOrh4

Governments always sucker the young and the naive. It happened to my stepson too. He has permanent war injuries.

True but these thin, meager young guys are completely unrecognizable as the Russian soldiers I remember seeing footage of training in the 1990s-- those guys were huge, fierce war-machines I wouldn't want to cross. Seriously, Putin's generals must've sent in their worst soldiers first. Incredible.

well David...not surprising at all actually. The Russian army though large has a large portion (roughly 1 in 4) of it consisting of ill trained short term conscripts and most damningly.. as any military person knows.. the backbone of any effective army is its NCO's. The Russian army has next to no tradition of a professional NCO class. It has worked on implementing a professional NCO system probably in reaction to that incident in 2019 where a Russian conscript shot and killed 8 of his fellow soldiers .. describing his life in the Russian army as.... hell

but according to the latest reports are still far from achieving that goal of a a professional army.

not surprising the in least they are as unmotivated and ineffective as they appear in the present invasion. True to form with the Russian military.. they never progressed past early 20th century tactics that involve sending conscript canon fodder in to die until they overwhelm an adversary. I am curious with the special knowledge Russians have in the dangers of urban fighting.. just how far they go in pulverizing Ukraine's cities thus making them even more dangerous to attack and harder to eliminate opposing forces than they were already. Then again from what we have seen already.. hard to attribute any strategic or tactical good sense on the Russians in this war.

Interesting that the ideal weapon in urban fighting is still the Molotov cocktail (Lviv smoothie) , going hand in hand with your correct statement about the antiquated tactics and especially the lingering reality that Russian officers are not trained to have multi-disciplinary training because of distrust of their political intentions (Stalin's purges left a long scar) . This was evident everywhere, whether in 1956 Budapest, in 1967 Sinai, in Kabul or Grozny , shoot the tank driver and the remaining crew had no training in driving said tank. Toss a Molotov from a rubbled rooftop, or the crew stay inside and fry or they exit and get riddled with bullets . "Motis" tactics used by the Finns just before WW2 caused 10 to 1 ratios of KIA (still a record I believe for an invaded force). The Ukrainians probably know this full well and will resort to urban guerrilla tactics , hit + run + disappear and bleed the Russians slowly , one by one. I know, it will be savage. Cry

well said Thomas

it does seem that is the most likely way this plays out militarily the longer the war continues. There are a lot of historical parallels to the way this invasion could play out.. and none of them particularly bode well for the Russians.

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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:30

Oliver Stone on facebook (today)

Although the United States has many wars of aggression on its conscience, it doesn’t justify Mr. Putin’s aggression in Ukraine. A dozen wrongs don’t make a right. Russia was wrong to invade. It has made too many mistakes -- 1) underestimating Ukrainian resistance, 2) overestimating the military’s ability to achieve its objective, 3) underestimating Europe’s reaction, especially Germany upping its military contribution to NATO, which they’ve resisted for some 20 years; even Switzerland has joined the cause. Russia will be more isolated than ever from the West. 4) underestimating the enhanced power of NATO, which will now put more pressure on Russia’s borders, 5) probably putting Ukraine into NATO, 6) underestimating the damage to its own economy and certainly creating more internal resistance in Russia, 7) creating a major readjustment of power in its oligarch class, 8 ) putting cluster and vacuum bombs into play, 9) and underestimating the power of social media worldwide. 

But we must wonder, how could Putin have saved the Russian-speaking people of Donetsk and Luhansk? No doubt his Government could’ve done a better job of showing the world the eight years of suffering of those people and their refugees -- as well as highlighting the Ukrainian buildup of 110,000 soldiers on the Donetsk-Luhansk borders, which was occurring essentially before the Russian buildup. But the West has far stronger public relations than the Russians.

Or perhaps Putin should’ve surrendered the two holdout provinces and offered 1-3 million people help to relocate in Russia. The world might’ve understood better the aggression of the Ukrainian Government. But then again, I’m not sure. 

But now, it’s too late. Putin has allowed himself to be baited and fallen into the trap set by the U.S. and has committed his military, empowering the worst conclusions the West can make. He probably, I think, has given up on the West, and this brings us closer than ever to a Final Confrontation. There seems to be no road back. The only ones happy about this are Russian nationalists and the legion of Russian haters, who finally got what they’ve been dreaming of for years, i.e. Biden, Pentagon, CIA, EU, NATO, mainstream media -- and don’t overlook Nuland and her sinister neocon gang in D.C. This will significantly vindicate the uber hawks in public eyes. Pointing out the toxicity of their policies (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, NATO expansion, breaking nuclear treaties, censoring and omitting crucial facts from the news, etc.) will be next to impossible. Pointing out Western double standards, including Kyiv and Zelenskyy’s bad behavior, will likewise fall on deaf ears as we again draw the wrong conclusions. 

It's easier now to smear those of us who tried to understand the Russian position through these last two decades. We tried. But now is the time, as JFK and Khrushchev faced down the perilous situation in Cuba in October 1962, for the two nuclear powers to walk this back from the abyss. Both sides need to save face.

This isn’t a moment for the U.S. to gloat. As a Vietnam War veteran and as a man who’s witnessed the endless antagonism of the Cold War, demonizing and humiliating foreign leaders is not a policy that can succeed. It only makes the situation worse. Back-channel negotiations are necessary, because whatever happens in the next few days or weeks, the specter of a final war must be realistically accepted and brokered. Who can do that? Are there real statesmen among us? Perhaps, I pray, Macron. Bring us the likes of Metternich, Talleyrand, Averell Harriman, George Shultz, James Baker, and Mikhail Gorbachev.  

The great unseen tragedy at the heart of this history of our times is the loss of a true peaceful partnership between Russia and the U.S. -- with, yes, potentially China, no reason why not except America’s desire for dominance. The idiots who kept provoking Russia after the Cold War ended in 1991 have committed a terrible crime against humanity and the future. Together, our countries could’ve been natural allies in the biggest battle of all against climate change. In its technical achievements alone, in large scale science, in its rocketry, heavy industries, and its most modern, clean nuclear energy reactors, Russia has been a great friend to man. Alas, in our century so far, man has failed to see or reach for the stars.

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.

SteveG

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:34

^ Good God, Stone is a lunatic and I will not waste my time reading anything he posts. You're entitled to your opinion and arguments, but please quote someone who is sane.

Edited by SteveG - March 04 2022 at 07:34

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Archisorcerus View Drop Down

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:38

^ I like to read Oliver Stone's analyses. For a long time. His commentary on Turkey long, long ago disturbed even my parents, but not me. Going against the grain is my thing. Though I would not say that I take his takes for granted. But, I find them quite wise.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 04 2022 at 07:39

SteveG

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Posted: March 04 2022 at 07:41

Archisorcerus wrote:

^ I like to read Oliver Stone's analyses. For a long time. His commentary on Turkey long, long ago disturbed even my parents, but not me. Going against the grain is my thing. Though I would not say that I take his takes for granted. But, I find them quite wise.

That's not surprising as even a broken clock is right twice a day! LOL

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