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micky 
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 Posted: May 22 2016 at 12:19 |
 ClemofNazareth wrote:
micky wrote:
Then you can get to the real job at hand. Making the place respectable. You don't make progress by burning the thing down.. you make it by renovating a room at a time. Baby steps man.
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Just to extend the analogy a bit Mick - sometimes the land is worth more than the house in which case you do tear it down and build something completely new.
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touché Bob.. touché..well played  but for the reality of the matter that you can't burn the political house down.. even if yes the nation itself is worth far more and would skyrocket in value with a brand new functioning rational house on it....for on that land are a LOT of backwards thinking people that don't agree with the need for having renovations.. much less a rebuild. Make America great again.. .words... empty words. Thus the need for baby steps.. we are changing hearts and minds... socially and yes perhaps even economically...but at a slow pace. Idealists IMO simply don't see the practical reality of that. You have to work within the flawed system. We have gone too far IMO to ever change the system. Far too many vested interests in not seeing it change. Short of a national catastrophe that would necessitate such changes.. it simply ain't happening. baby steps... Hillary being the first... she won't fix anything economically.. but she will continue the social liberatization that we have been moving down the road to. Not to mention she won't undo what we have accomplished unlike Trump and his minions of bigots, racists and misogynists. and after her... the table is set for the shifting to the left economically of the party. In conjection perhaps (hopefully) of the self immolation of the GOP as they continue to alienate moderates, women, minoriies and perhaps even a few more groups as we go with obstruction in government.. a bankrupt ideology based only on fear of said groups and a changing America.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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ClemofNazareth
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Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 4659
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Posted: May 22 2016 at 19:38 |
The problem Mick is the focus of the leading candidates and their parties are on the wrong things in this election. Both parties have lost touch with their base which is why we've seen such a strong gravitation toward the fringe, populist candidates both on the left and the right (Trump and Sanders).
This is a Maslow's pyramid problem, not a political one. I'm not sure we have time for baby steps, and unless we address the domestic and economic problems in our country, the politics won't matter. We have 48 million people living in poverty in this country, the highest number ever and the highest rate since the Kennedy administration. We have 12 million undocumented immigrants with no options where they came from and no path to any kind of secure future here. We have more than 2 million people behind bars, by far the highest rate of any nation. We have about 35 million people with no health insurance or access to affordable healthcare. And we have nearly a million people living on the streets, many of them with mental or addiction problems and little or no access to any help. At the same time we're spending more on our military than any country in the world and financing much of it with a debt that has tripled since the 2008 recession, yet by most measures we are no more (and probably less) safe than we were ten or twenty years ago.
But the real problem is that we're suffocating our future. Our massive debt means the federal and state and local governments that used to build schools and libraries and parks with band shells and pools now focus their attention on casinos and lotteries for income while our schools cut programs and our infrastructure erodes. Among all those people living in poverty are 17 million children, yet the federal government has and continues to cut funding for programs like Headstart and many right-leaning states have refused to expand Medicaid on purely political grounds. The cost of higher education has risen nearly 600% in this country in the past 30 years, more than healthcare or gasoline or food. Wages for working class Americans have been largely stagnant since the late 1970s. And mega-corporations and millionaires hide trillions in offshore profits to avoid taxes while continuing to shift the middle class from the U.S. to Mexico, China and central Europe.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Trump supporter and I'm not an isolationist, but unless we focus our political will on fixing our infrastructure and on providing opportunities for our children and the growing number of poor and immigrants, we are headed toward adding our name to the list of nations around the world that were once great and vibrant powers but are now looking at their best days in the rear-view mirror and in their history books.
We talk about social reform for minorities, immigrants, women and those marginalized for their sexual orientation (and I'll add those who are marginalized for their religion as well). But many of those groups are dis-proportionally represented among the poor, working poor and those with limited or no access to healthcare or to the kind of education they need to make a way out of that cycle. And this brings us back to Maslow. I'm not sure we have the luxury of taking the safe and gradual road to reform in this country because when you're hungry or sick or ostracized and have little hope, the subtle nuances of politics just don't seem to matter.
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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Icarium
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Joined: March 21 2008
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Points: 34055
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Posted: May 22 2016 at 19:51 |
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I mis Jon Stewart in the Daily Show seet during an election like this one...
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 22 2016 at 21:48 |
ClemofNazareth wrote:
micky wrote:
Then you can get to the real job at hand. Making the place respectable. You don't make progress by burning the thing down.. you make it by renovating a room at a time. Baby steps man.
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Just to extend the analogy a bit Mick - sometimes the land is worth more than the house in which case you do tear it down and build something completely new.
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All I know is, I don't wanna burn any houses down. Only Trumpers want that, and the joke on all of them is Trump is already doing what we expected and showing he was trolling them all. He's already making peace with "the establishment" and is walking back his extreme comments.
So I agree, burning down the house is not the way to go but no one wants that... These metaphors are getting old personally  Some Sanders supporters may want that, but most don't. The man himself has ideas, plans and excitement can be ferocious in the moment, but in reality a Sanders revolution would be like the Ron Paul one. Slow, working within the party, compromising (which has pissed off many die hard libertarians) but has landed libertarian ideas a lot of success recently.
So I do wish people would chill with the worry/attacks about unbridled populusm, naive revolutionaries, burning down houses and etc...we ALL know revolutions end up moderating once in power 
Just to beat the dead horse: My fear is Clinton will be such a timid leader, it'll actually hurt us in the long run. Sanders will try to rebuild the whole house, and like all house projects end up doing so one room at a time...Clinton will attempt it one square inch at a time, while working with a team wanting to tear the house down So we'll get more of the same: A few square inches of a room done, maybe even one room...but the room next door is being bulldozed.
Edited by JJLehto - May 22 2016 at 21:51
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Points: 65313
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Posted: May 22 2016 at 21:54 |
JJLehto wrote:
we ALL know revolutions end up moderating once in power |
Right; all movements wind up with convention. That's just how things resolve when people decide they prefer one thing over another.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 00:23 |
Atavachron wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
we ALL know revolutions end up moderating once in power |
Right; all movements wind up with convention. That's just how things resolve when people decide they prefer one thing over another.
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Right, not sure if there's a disagreement here I will say it's not so much a choosing a one vs another, more like: things only can happen incrementally, even if the steps taken are big...unless there's a true blue revolution, which no one wants and always ends disasterously, all progress is incremental so again I find it a little funny there's all this worry of populism, and unbridled rage, Sanders that madman etc etc like, learn some history. Also, if it's understood that all leaders must compromise and meet half way, I don't get why people think Clinton will achieve more, by admitting she will go less hard. Just odd to me everyone accepts the first, but not apply it.
But hey, that's how it goes I guess. Kinda like a newspaper interview where Sanders is asked how he would break up the banks. Gives an answer, one that Clinton basically said before in debates btw, is reported next day "lol he has no answer!!!" repeated 1000X a day from TV to internet and swirls around FB how inept he is, despite me asking people about his answer and most admitting they never read the article 
Or ya know, at the latest Nevada convention the rules were changed day of, (not already set but the day of), Sanders supporters are upset...reported 1000X about these insane, angry unruly mobs...All these videos of yelling people but I saw no violence or chairs thrown despite numerous reports. I just hope one thing that comes out of Sanders campaign is electoral reform. Most people have never heard of super delegates or knew about these arcane, asinine, undemocratic rules...now that they do I hope change will be demanded.
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 00:55 |
In regards to progress, I feel Obama is a bit of a tragic hero. His want to compromise, to unify, to reach across the aisle was his downfall, and as I've stated before...a detriment to progress itself and the Democratic Party, (the vehicle of progress). He compromised unnecessarily: his opponent was never going to meet him an inch and he was given a mandate by the US people to pursue the policies he sought...yet sought compromise from the get go and always accepted it even when he didn't need to, upsetting progressives and "justifying" the belief government can't do anything. While I believe he squandered a rare opportunity, it's damn hard to blame him...especially after the toxic Bush administration. Tragic hero, doomed from the start and his principles make him great and weak. Very sad.
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
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Points: 65313
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 01:14 |
JJLehto wrote:
Right, not sure if there's a disagreement here |
Because there wasn't. It was a reiteration. The perils of non-verbal communication.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
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Points: 34055
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 01:58 |
JJLehto wrote:
In regards to progress, I feel Obama is a bit of a tragic hero. His want to compromise, to unify, to reach across the aisle was his downfall, and as I've stated before...a detriment to progress itself and the Democratic Party, (the vehicle of progress). He compromised unnecessarily: his opponent was never going to meet him an inch and he was given a mandate by the US people to pursue the policies he sought...yet sought compromise from the get go and always accepted it even when he didn't need to, upsetting progressives and "justifying" the belief government can't do anything. While I believe he squandered a rare opportunity, it's damn hard to blame him...especially after the toxic Bush administration. Tragic hero, doomed from the start and his principles make him great and weak. Very sad.
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would compare him to Oedipus or Hamlett?
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Points: 34550
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 02:26 |
I once mentioned how we in the US really aren't that unique, (well at least for this election) in that Europe has seen it's own Trumps and left wing populists rise up in recent years...seems it continues. I just saw the Freedom Party of Austria has won, at least for now seems some ballots still pending, its countries Presidential Election, a party which apparently has an anti Islam, immigration and eurosceptic view and promotes a strong homeland image. Sounds familiar
This is just the latest, I believe the National Front is a frontrunner, if not favorite, for the upcoming French election, and there's been these right wing anti muslim/immigrant/open populist parties rising all over the continent, as well as anti austerity fueled socialist parties. It's kind of fascinating to me, what's happening in the US is just part of a global movement.
Austerity, technocrats in Europe/moneyed interests in the US, the lack of a real liberal option, failure of mainstream parties, economic malaise, fear at immigrants, muslims and openess to the world. It seems to be taking grip all over, much like the 1930s also a time of economic malaise and austerity. Seems we dont learn!
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 07:45 |
JJLehto wrote:
So I do wish people would chill with the worry/attacks about unbridled populusm, naive revolutionaries, burning down houses and etc...we ALL know revolutions end up moderating once in power
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Really? Tell that to the French during the Terror, Chinese during the Cultural Revolution, the Cambodians during the reign of the Khmer Rouge, and the Russians under Stalin. Revolutions only moderate once they've killed a whole lot of people.
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A Person
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Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 09:19 |
ClemofNazareth wrote:
I'm not sure we have the luxury of taking the safe and gradual road to reform in this country because when you're hungry or sick or ostracized and have little hope, the subtle nuances of politics just don't seem to matter. |
That is my problem with highly reformist politics, they don't really effect the people who need change the most. You mentioned Maslow and I agree, for those whose basic needs aren't being met those kinds of politics are pretty much meaningless.
emigre80 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
So I do wish people would chill
with the worry/attacks about unbridled populusm, naive revolutionaries,
burning down houses and etc...we ALL know revolutions end up moderating
once in power 
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Really? Tell that to the French during the Terror,
Chinese during the Cultural Revolution, the Cambodians during the reign
of the Khmer Rouge, and the Russians under Stalin. Revolutions only moderate once they've killed a whole lot of people. |
That was sarcasm, I am pretty sure.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 09:46 |
In other news, I've read already about a few polls showing that Hillary's comfortable lead over Trump has all but vanished. 
So, we're getting closer to "Bernie or Bust"-ers having their dream come true: making America bust again.
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 12:15 |
Oops, like the media I jumped the gun (this is what you get for taking what you read as fact before things are over)
It seems the Freedom Party of Austria did not win, their candidate lost by .7% That said, the result was pretty shocking still
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A Person
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Joined: November 10 2008
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Points: 65760
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 12:48 |
The T wrote:
In other news, I've read already about a few polls showing that Hillary's comfortable lead over Trump has all but vanished.
So, we're getting closer to "Bernie or Bust"-ers having their dream come true: making America bust again.
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Bernie still beats Trump by over 10 points.
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The T
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 13:00 |
A Person wrote:
The T wrote:
In other news, I've read already about a few polls showing that Hillary's comfortable lead over Trump has all but vanished.
So, we're getting closer to "Bernie or Bust"-ers having their dream come true: making America bust again.
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Bernie still beats Trump by over 10 points.
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Hillary still beats Bernie by over 200 pledged delegates
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The T
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 13:02 |
JJLehto wrote:
Oops, like the media I jumped the gun (this is what you get for taking what you read as fact before things are over)
It seems the Freedom Party of Austria did not win, their candidate lost by .7% That said, the result was pretty shocking still |
Right-wing parties and Trump-alikes have been popping up from everywhere in recent years.
It would be quite embarrassing to be among the first countries to actually elect one of these
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A Person
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Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
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Points: 65760
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 13:02 |
The T wrote:
A Person wrote:
The T wrote:
In other news, I've read already about a few polls showing that Hillary's comfortable lead over Trump has all but vanished.
So, we're getting closer to "Bernie or Bust"-ers having their dream come true: making America bust again.
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Bernie still beats Trump by over 10 points.
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Hillary still beats Bernie by over 200 pledged delegates
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That's why were going to get Trump as president. :(
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 13:19 |
A Person wrote:
The T wrote:
A Person wrote:
The T wrote:
In other news, I've read already about a few polls showing that Hillary's comfortable lead over Trump has all but vanished.
So, we're getting closer to "Bernie or Bust"-ers having their dream come true: making America bust again.
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Bernie still beats Trump by over 10 points.
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Hillary still beats Bernie by over 200 pledged delegates
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That's why were going to get Trump as president. :(
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Also because of the not-so-minuscule percentage of Bernie supporters who prefer to sit out of the election or (worse) actually vote for Trump 
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Raff
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Posted: May 23 2016 at 13:45 |
The T wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Oops, like the media I jumped the gun (this is what you get for taking what you read as fact before things are over)
It seems the Freedom Party of Austria did not win, their candidate lost by .7% That said, the result was pretty shocking still |
Right-wing parties and Trump-alikes have been popping up from everywhere in recent years.
It would be quite embarrassing to be among the first countries to actually elect one of these |
I don't think Trump is right-wing in the same way as the Austrian candidate is. Europe (much as it pains me to admit it) does far-right-wing populism much better than the US, which specialize in right-wing economic policies. Personally, I don't think Trump really believes in what he says: the trouble is, his followers do, and they're not going to go away, even if Hillary wins the election. Trump is dangerous because he has no clue of what the job entails, and he seems to be too much of a loose cannon when it comes to interacting with other people.
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American Politics the 2016 edition
