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Paravion View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 09:47
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Have a look at this "controversial" video:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4XJQO3qol8

I agree 100% ... what's the big deal? Why should anyone be offended - and isn't it kind of ironic that before the announced burning of the Qur'an books by Terry Jones we see Islamists protesting in the streets, burning American flags in the process?Wink
I was somewhat provoked by that, and I completely disagree.
I can't believe he fails to understand (the substantial) difference between burning books and burning other symbols (eg. flags). It's true that flags and books both are symbols, but they differ in many aspects.

The Koran is both a symbol of Islam but in a more general sense it's also a symbol of knowledge, wisdom, history, culture etc. (a symbolic feature it shares with books in general). Besides the symbolic content, a book also has 'real' content. When you burn the Koran, you perform the act of burning a symbol of Islam, but you also inevitably perform the act of burning a book - which evokes nauseating historical memories. It's an immensely stupid thing to do.    

A flag has merely symbolic content (and - also the material it's made of)

I oppose to burning both flags and books (of course), but I find burning a book is far worse than burning a flag. And, surely, it is a big deal. 

I also wonder what kind of world the guy in video seems to be living in. He chooses to ignore the consequences of the act and ascribe more importance to his failed conclusion that 'it's just a book - it's not a big deal'. It is not 'just a book' and it is a big deal. He also mixes fiction with reality in his South Park example and says "Matt Stone and Trey Parker were doing the exact same thing". That's just ridiculous.   

And apparently it's also more important to 'stand up' for the right for religious extremist to 'protest', despite the extreme provocative aspects of their so called 'protest'. It's completely out of place to make this an issue of freedom of speech, actions, protests, whatever. 

My sentiment is that "freedom of speech" is not beyond common decency, and that it's out of place to put it on a pedestal every time someone wishes to severely provoke and hurt other people. 

I'm not religious, but I don't think religion is intrinsically, and only, a bad thing and that it - at all cost - has to be fought and argued against - you mostly can't argue with religious people. There is enough room in this world for both religious and non-religious people. Peace.


Edited by Paravion - September 11 2010 at 09:49
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 09:50
It is just a book, and it's only a big deal if you make it one - that was the point. The burning of a book only "hurts" people who choose to be hurt by it.

BTW: You only mentioned the Qur'an ... did you watch the video?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 09:56
I got the point, that the Koran, Bible, and God Delusion got equal treatment. 

Quote and it's only a big deal if you make it one - that was the point. 
Well, too late. It is a big deal. 
   
Quote The burning of a book only "hurts" people who choose to be hurt by it.
Do you really think all Muslims at some point in their existence made a choice to be hurt by a book-burning event? 


Edited by Paravion - September 11 2010 at 10:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:16
^ So freedom of speech ends whenever someone chooses to be insulted? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:25
Again - I don't think it makes sense to speak about 'choice'. Freedom of speech has limits, surely. It's misplaced to elevate it to an extend where it becomes legitimate to do harm, insult and severely provoke other people just for the sake of it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:28
^ I disagree. There is no harm in him burning some of his books and publishing a video of him doing that. If you think there is, please demonstrate the actual harm.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:30
He's harmless. But he talks in favor of book-burning extremists and defend their right to protest... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 11:26
You don't think this right should be defended? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 11:51
Look freedom of speech is fine, but it has limits. If you're going to hurt someone's feelings, that's just not cool. If the government decides that you're gonna upset someone then like it should stop you because people have a right not to get insulted. I heard that this girl onetime killed herself because people made fun of her and like that's not right. So the government really knows best here and we should listen becasue they're just protecting us. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 11:59
Yeah, impressive. Really shocking etc..thought provoking whatever..

Books may just be paper, but this is just lazy thinking. Some books are sacred to many people, and a percentage of those people are prepared to shed blood over the burning of them. Let's not shed blood. Let's not burn their books, lets just ignore them, and let them get on with what they believe in. Lets act when their blind misguided faith threatens us, but for the meantime, when you see a wasps nest, don't poke it with a sh*tty stick.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:02
So to prevent a terrorist takeover of our country, which would result in a Sharia law dictatorship, we should restrict peoples rights so that they can't do the things with a Sharia law dictatorship would forbid.

Makes sense. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:02
^^^ So - you're saying that we should let the government decide in which cases freedom of speech should be granted?

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing to provoke or deliberately insult people. But I also think that it's impossible to impartially say which statements should be permitted, and which should be censored.




Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 11 2010 at 12:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:07
Thinning of the herd.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:15
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^^ So - you're saying that we should let the government decide in which cases freedom of speech should be granted?

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing to provoke or deliberately insult people. But I also think that it's impossible to impartially say which statements should be permitted, and which should be censored.



I assume you meant to direct this towards Black.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:23
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



^^^ So - you're saying that we should let the government decide in which cases freedom of speech should be granted?I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing to provoke or deliberately insult people. But I also think that it's impossible to impartially say which statements should be permitted, and which should be censored.


It's a tricky one, but this is not so much a case of exorcising ones right to free speech, it's do we allow people to deliberately incite hatred to the possible detriment of us all?

He could have just started a campaign against the building of a mosque near the WTC site, but instead he chose to stage a provocative act against an entire religion, which could have led to US citizens - not just forces in Afghanistan - being exposed to violent reprisals, and possible terrorist attacks. In light of that he could be accessory to murder, maybe mass murder, and that is a crime however you choose to dress it up.

Edited by Blacksword - September 11 2010 at 12:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:31
I assume you're talking about Terry Jones. I basically agree that his announcement to burn the Qur'ans was stupid beyond belief. But accessory to murder? Come on. The evil, morally wrong action in this story is that people would kill over such a statement.

If your solution is to censor free speech so as to not provoke any terrorist attacks, the terrorists have already won.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:35
It really annoys me when we are having the same discussion across multiple threads. :P There's a huge difference between burning a flag, The God Delusion, and a Quaran. Burning them to piss people off is stupid, but if you think people don't have the right to do so your position on freedom of expression frightens me. 
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


He could have just started a campaign against the building of a mosque near the WTC site, but instead he chose to stage a provocative act against an entire religion, which could have led to US citizens - not just forces in Afghanistan - being exposed to violent reprisals, and possible terrorist attacks. In light of that he could be accessory to murder, maybe mass murder, and that is a crime however you choose to dress it up.
Accessory to murder? How can he be held responsible for things other people do when he has never met them? Were the people at Columbine accessories to their own murders? That's a terrifying precedent you would be setting here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:37
^ Where's the difference? They're all symbols, and burning them is an extreme way to show your disagreement with what they stand for.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 13:29
Today's Cyanide & Happiness:



Cyanide & Happiness @ Explosm.net

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2010 at 13:33
^ Nice. LOL
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