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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2008 at 08:31
Surely we are coming to one tentative conclusion: progressive rock really can't be said to have arrived until  a band issued a complete 35 to 50 minutes of progressive music across two sides of vinyl, without any short fillers. Whoops there goes one of my favourites, beit released 1971, The Yes Album but indeed also the 1968 recording/1969 release Touch. I feel very slightly reinforced in this argument listening to the first two solo albums by Terry Reid and the Tomorrow album - each of these three albums have prog-like tunes, but also lightweight pop tunes (no doubt with record companies pressing for hit singles still), and the inevitable covers of other's tunes. Therefore we come back to ITCOTCK and the first Renaissance albums coming in first and second?

Edited by Dick Heath - May 18 2008 at 08:32
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Points: 7113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2008 at 23:45
Okay, what is that supposed to mean? "Thirty to fifty minutes of progressive music...without any short fillers?"
 
Okay, wait a minute, what about "I Talk to the Wind?" That's ONLY JUST psycho folk. It's certainly not long; therefore, it CANNOT BE progressive. Sorry. That's just the way things work.
 
Ergo, Inna Court shouldn't be regarded as the first full blown prog rock album. That dubious honor must fall, therefore, on Emerson Lake and Palmer or something.
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Points: 32 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2008 at 00:11
ok, look... nothing is more annoying, and ultimately kinda dumb, than splitting hairs over genre definitions (listen to some 20 year olds on an overnight college radio show arguing about a song being "house" or "freestyle" or some such. ) But this stuff about long tracks, no filler, blah blah blah... the first 2 softs records weren't  "progressive"? piper at the gates of dawn? freak out?  and while we're at it, king crimson's probably my favorite band, been so for over 35 years, but i wasn't long out of puberty when i realized the "in the court of the you know what" was an embarrassingly immature, puerile, plodding mess. it's childish.
   the first concert i ever attended was the central park show from the "usa" tour, the show after which david cross left. they opened with "lark's tongues pt.2". i was 14 and even then i knew that THEY knew what "grown-up" music was, and why they weren't playing the silly stuff anymore. they had to play "schizoid man" forever though, and they hated it, but, you know, it's a business...
glen- "funny world..."
h.i. "damn funny."
glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..."
h.i. "i'd buy one..."
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Points: 28054 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2008 at 03:39
The Nice -Ars Long Vita Brevis (1968) has a side long symphonic prog track inspired by Bach.
 
Also Crazy World Of Arthur Brown did a concept album around that time as well.They had a young drummer called Carl Palmer who with organist Vince Crane formed Atomic Rooster in 1969.
 
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Points: 1250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2008 at 13:17

I'm not sure we can ever agree of what is a full prog album. When I listen to ITCOTCK (which I don't do much nowadays since as Bang! I find it a bit immature but not that bad) I hear strong connection to the moodies' Days of future passed.

It is not the first prog album but unlike some others which were released few month before this was a very influencial album and can be described as the first time the world realised that there's a new kind of music. There are many better prog albums including some of the moodies but it is a milestone in the history of prog and I think it is the first milestone.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2008 at 13:37
In the purest sense of what Progressive Rock is, ITCOTCK is without a doubt the first Prog Rock album proper.
 
There are many "prototypes", as indicated by Dick, and all the other posts - I'd include Graham Bond's Organisation as probably the earliest, along with The Who's "A Quick One..." as mentioned above.
 
The first time I know of the term appearing on an album was 1968 - I've temporarily forgotten what that album was - but that could lay claim to being the first, if only because it used the term.
 
I would personally lay the blame squarely at Pink Floyd's feet - the whole "Piper..." album is a lot less naive than most would (dis)credit it for, and IO is not "vanilla" psychedelia.
 
Even among the psychedelic scene, there were many albums that are more progressive than pure "psych" (Fifty Foot Hose has already been mentioned, I'm delighted to see) - and, of course, there was a thriving progressive blues scene in the UK. Yardbirds have been mentioned, but, surprisingly, not Johnny Winters' "Progressive Blues Experiment" (not as progressive as the title would have you believe, but a clear indication of the "movement").
 
There was also an underground electronics scene that often gets overlooked - the leading name in the UK being the wonderful Delia Derbyshire. Her involvement in the 1,000,000 volts sound and light rave (I forget the real name) is crucial - and it's often forgotten that Paul McCartney composed an electronic piece which remains unheard by the rest of us for that festival. Other important electronics wizards of the time were Varese (who famously influenced Zappa) and Pierre Henry (who later worked with Spooky Tooth on the disastrous/fascinating album "Ceremony").
 
The others mentioned, Moodies, Procol Harum, etc. (more pop groups with progressive leanings, like Kaleidoscope and Tomorrow)., were in second place, progressively speaking, to contemporary bands like The Nice - and bands like Art (later Spooky Tooth) and Clouds (previously 1-2-3), who were instrumental (sic) in developing progressive music.
 
Having recently acquired both "Scrapbook" and "Watercolour Days", I realise what the latter were doing, albeit in a rather hamfisted manner. "Watercolour Days" is at least as progressive as ITCOTCK, if more poppy in style and lacking both finesse and long songs - but every piece is a marvel of truly progressive songwriting (with very sucky drum fills).
 
There are also the concept albums of the Pretty Things and the Small Faces (et al), not to mention Andrew Lloyd Webber's Rock Opera which all predate Prog Rock.
 
There's probably other stuff I forgot, but Prog Rock (as opposed to "mere" progressive rock) arose out of this scene, but there is simply nothing that fuses as many varying elements is ITCOTCK that predates it, only stuff which comes close.


Edited by Certif1ed - May 21 2008 at 14:48
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Points: 413 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2008 at 14:39
Roaring Sixties and Farinas > FAMILY> " MUSIC IN A DOLLīS HOUSE", 1968
ZAPPA > "FREAK OUT" (btw, very first double LP prog album with 24 musicians who were played on the album), 1966
QUICKSILVER MESSENGER SERVICE > s/t, 1968
STEVE MILLER BAND > "CHILDREN OF FUTURE", 1968
IRON BUTTERFLY> "IN - A - GADDA - DA - VIDA", 1968
ITīS A BEAUTIFUL DAY > s/t ( btw, so great WHITE BIRD the song!), 1969
MOTT (THE HOOPLE) > s/t, 1969
THE MOVE > s/t , 1967
PROCOL HARUM > "SHINE ON BRIGHTLY", 1967
JETHRO TULL > "THIS WAS", 1968
 
 
 
 
 
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2008 at 14:51
Originally posted by zicIy zicIy wrote:

ITīS A BEAUTIFUL DAY > s/t ( btw, so great WHITE BIRD the song!), 1969
 
 
Very good album - and very progressive.
 
 
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Points: 7113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2008 at 02:46
Beautiful Day is here? Very nice.
"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2008 at 04:13
The 1968 album I was thinking of earlier is "Eclection" by Eclection - which pushes many Prog Rock buttons, but is a bit lacking in the formal development department. Listening to it now - it's a great psych/folk-based album with some great subtleties that seem rooted in Jefferson Airplane/Fairport Convention, with flavours of the Moodies "Days of Future Passed" in the orchestrations, heralding both Genesis and Renaissance (especially the latter, but without the annoying Beethoven quotes). It NEEDS to be in the archives - I'll get onto it...
 
It only says it's Progressive Rock on the packaging - who am I to argue? Tongue
 
 
The McCartney piece I was thinking of is called "Carnival of Light" - and it's legendary.
 
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2008 at 04:41
Originally posted by bang! bang! wrote:

it's not what we really mean by prog rock and the first incredible string band record was weirder than "h's b d " No way! Must be a while since you last listened to them.

anyway but then that's prog folk and a whole different conversation.  


I consider Incredible String Band to be much more than just prog folk, and incomparable to pub(folk)rockers like Strawbs. Anyway, I just made a list I think is pretty relevant and  wrote; ...albums that might have some of what you look for. Not suggesting that it all started with ISB.

Originally posted by bang! bang! wrote:

and did any actual musicians take ITCOTCK more seriously than freak out?


Sounds to me like the whole british (and italian) progscene seemed to.

(while Zappa's obviously more important to Canterbury, jazzrock and RIO)
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2008 at 04:52
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

 
(...) But stand by to be swamped with psychedelia  and avant rock/blues, which was not heard as prog until the young liberals here (who were neither born nor increasingly appear to have read the subject in any depth) started to rewrite history. Sticking to mainstream prog:(...)
 
Here's the main issue with anything pre-ITCOTCK - it's not so much that people are re-writing history, as people either didn't write it in the first place, or wrote it from a very skewed point of view;
 
Most books or articles I've read on Prog (indeed, rock in general) concentrate on the well-knowns and a cross-section of bands known to and loved by the author. The author generally goes on to connect his favourite bands as being essential to overall development - a very common trap in music journalism.
 
Sometimes it's the lesser-knowns - the unsung heroes - who did play a significant part, but generally, all musical trends are led from the top. The issue here is getting the balance, as the guys at the top picked up ideas from the little guys, and the little guys were spurred on (whether through imitation or direct rejection of what the established bands stood for) by the big guys. Phew...
 
 
Most of these books also take an authoritative stance from the viewpoint of "I was there". Well, "there was but one place, and as you read the many articles on the subject, you realise that every author who was "there" has their own ideas - obviously and naturally, depending on where "there" was. With the huge number of bands in varying scenes around the world, no-one can categorically state that they were everywhere and knew everything that every band released.
 
I'd say that It's actually easier for someone born after the time to make objective judgements - providing the right perspective is kept. People who were "there" are extremely valuable for providing facts connected with their particular spheres.
 
 
The main problem with the history and definition of Prog Rock is that as yet, it has not been satisfactorily documented (ie free from the author's bias and a useful and workable definition that is commonly agreed on) - hence the frequency of questions on the subject.
 
The internet is really useful in digging out further data - but like any mine of data, you need to spend some time sifting out the real gold from the crud.
 
But history does need to be re-written to match the facts Wink
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2008 at 13:55
S.F. Sorrow by the Pretty Things ('68)
great album - arguably the first 'concept' album
http://www.myspace.com/goldendeathmusic
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2008 at 14:18

^An early "rock opera", but the first concept album was "Wee Small Hours" by Frank Sinatra (1957). Wink
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