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debrewguy 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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 Posted: May 29 2007 at 12:32 |
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Is populism ever popular with those who are not targeted by it ? I.E. if Chavez is playing to the poor, would the rich support him ? The history of the continent is a lesson in realpolitik. The U.S. (as the USSR, U.K., France & all major powers have done through the centuries) wanted friends in power & did everything that could be done within the exisiting world power structure to get its' way. With the disappearance of the USSR, there was finally a chance for the citizens to have a say in who they actually wanted in charge. While no country can be said to have a perfect democracy, the current situation is an improvement. As for Venezuela & Chavez, well .... the U.S. has made the usual surreptitious efforts to get him kicked out. And as usual, once found out, the U.S. ends up strengthening the hand of the one they oppose.
If it wasn't for domestic U.S. politics, you wonder if some leaders in countries such as Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and others might just have been discarded by their populace. Sometimes people want to keep it in the family, so to speak, & any interference increases a defensiveness that defeats the interferor's intentions.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: May 29 2007 at 17:47 |
 Sean Trane wrote:
The T wrote:
Those who don't come from SouthAmerica maybe can't properly understand the populist phenomenon.... I see some posts here supporting Chavez... I don't want to be harsh, sorry, but when you have never known what it's like to live without democracy or rights, it's very easy to applaud from afar when you see a southamerican president standing up to the stupidity of Bush, for example.... That's what gains supporters outside his borders....
All of you who don't know what populism is because you haven't lived with it, congratulations! |
Although I haven't been in South America recently, I did a crossing of the Andes in 81 from Caracas to Santiago De Chile (originally intending to go to Tierre Del Fuego, but we never got therefor smoking reasons), and I had plenty of time to see the realities of the continent (including a few hours in an Ecuador police post, saved from a trip to jail by a diplomatic passport) and sleeping in Indian "huts" at 4000 m altitude, eating mashed (trampled by the housewive but uncooked) potatoes with locals.
I can tell you that those populist and left-leaning democracies cannot be worse than most of the right-leaning dictators of those years ( Pinochet never bothered me as long as I stayed a tourist and didn't get involved). Surely the Indios cannot be worse of in Venezuala or Ecuador than they've been for the last 300 years.
As for populism, there is not a single definition of populism, because every populism depends of the populist  deploying it. To take the Netherlands (since you addressed Tuxon about this) , the only known populist was Pim Fortuyn who had a much success and got shot dead a few uears ago, definitely burying the movement. This guy had close to fascist stance even slightly racist remarks, yet was highly popular amongst the poorer classes and actually had many immigrants backing him. This was puzzling as hell. I only came in the country a few months after his murder, so I was never able to really understand the mechanics it was working on.
IVNORD wrote:
Sean,
I don't know why it never occured to me that you are a radical as you have conformed to every definition in my book... I like radicals, they usually honest and well-intentioned guys, though grossly confused... >> I was never a radical, but have voted left wing for most of my life. But in Europe and especially in Southern Belgium, the Socialist party has become more the problem than the solution >> they almost incite people to stay at home and not get jobs so that they can profit from programmes etc.. (>> if you want more >> In a PM).
So for the first time in my life, I am actually contemplating voting for the liberals (I hate conservateur or Christian democrats as they called themselves) next month in the national elections, just because it is time to send the socialist in the opposition for a renewal of the people. Indeed the left has become so corrupt and rotten and they are not able (or worse, lack the will) to get rid of the rotten apples in the basket.
Chavez is a pathetic opportunist. He does not fight the US imperialism. It's a smoke screen to achieve his personal goals. I don't know exactly what goals and I don't care to know as he is of little significance. >> Chavez is so far rolling for the Amerindians majority of his country who own less than 5% of the wealth of the country. This is why he nationalized the oil industry.
If he fought the US imperialism he would have stopped selling us his oil. Instead he enjoys the nice run-up in prices to support his domestic programs (throwng a bone to the population) squeezing all he can as he most likely still remembers as Venezuela was on the brink of bankrupcy just some 8 years ago when the price was just slightly above $10 and the cost of production in Venezuela happened to be over $8. Wonder if he still pays his workers the same $8 , such a caring fellow. >> Part of the profit from the oil he sells to the US is to compensate the oil sales to Nicaragua, Cuba and otherneedy countries for a quarter of the price of the market.
I don't think the US really harasses him. >> they have systematically fuelled/financed the opposition's cries for strikes against the Chavez politics. We need his oil and he needs our $$. So any tough talk from both sides is just a little show for the masses .
You take him too seriously. >>> I wish I did. As I said I don't mind him support those left wing gov't of Latin America, but making technology pacts with Iran is very dumb. And I doubt the Bush admin appreciates, after he freely breaks the Cuban embargo by shipping oil for a few cigars, therefore allowing for the Castrist to survive longer |
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So to take all the media to himself or the universities doesn't matter much? this situation is worse than you all can imagine, and if you heard everything Chavez said, you'd be nodding
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Jesus Gabriel
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: May 29 2007 at 18:04 |
debrewguy wrote:
Is populism ever popular with those who are not targeted by it ? I.E. if Chavez is playing to the poor, would the rich support him ? The history of the continent is a lesson in realpolitik. The U.S. (as the USSR, U.K., France & all major powers have done through the centuries) wanted friends in power & did everything that could be done within the exisiting world power structure to get its' way. With the disappearance of the USSR, there was finally a chance for the citizens to have a say in who they actually wanted in charge. While no country can be said to have a perfect democracy, the current situation is an improvement. As for Venezuela & Chavez, well .... the U.S. has made the usual surreptitious efforts to get him kicked out. And as usual, once found out, the U.S. ends up strengthening the hand of the one they oppose.
If it wasn't for domestic U.S. politics, you wonder if some leaders in countries such as Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and others might just have been discarded by their populace. Sometimes people want to keep it in the family, so to speak, & any interference increases a defensiveness that defeats the interferor's intentions.
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You need to be here, some people want Chavez because he feeds their mediocrity, not because he's actually opening opportunities for them. His educational "missions" are rather lacking to say the least (I know this because I know people who are in those missions) and the students get paid every 15th and 30th, so most of them just go to get the paycheck and never go to class, teachers are also quite mediocre; those people defend Chavez because they are conformists, and don't wish to really develop. If he wanted to upgrade the poors situation, he would give them education of superior level, could help raise the employment, insted of scaring away inversionists. He would open new opportunities for them, not making the rich poorer to have an "equal" society, but to make the poor richer. And his social propaganda is just a bridge to establish his authoritarian system, and to control the population to his needs. How can you explain the General Prosecutor of the Bolivarian Republic was the vice-president before, and the president of one of the commands of the government party, when a General Prosecutor is supposed to be neutral?. Also, his need to take all the media to himself and the universities, as well as his thirst for every production source
Edited by Chus - May 29 2007 at 18:04
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Jesus Gabriel
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: May 29 2007 at 23:09 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Sean,
I don't know why it never occured to me that you are a radical as you have conformed to every definition in my book... I like radicals, they usually honest and well-intentioned guys, though grossly confused... >> I was never a radical, but have voted left wing for most of my life. But in Europe and especially in Southern Belgium, the Socialist party has become more the problem than the solution >> they almost incite people to stay at home and not get jobs so that they can profit from programmes etc.. (>> if you want more >> In a PM). Power corrupts.
So for the first time in my life, I am actually contemplating voting for the liberals (I hate conservateur or Christian democrats as they called themselves) next month in the national elections, just because it is time to send the socialist in the opposition for a renewal of the people. Indeed the left has become so corrupt and rotten and they are not able (or worse, lack the will) to get rid of the rotten apples in the basket.
Chavez is a pathetic opportunist. He does not fight the US imperialism. It's a smoke screen to achieve his personal goals. I don't know exactly what goals and I don't care to know as he is of little significance. >> Chavez is so far rolling for the Amerindians majority of his country who own less than 5% of the wealth of the country. This is why he nationalized the oil industry. The key word here is "majority." Typical populist tactics.
If he fought the US imperialism he would have stopped selling us his oil. Instead he enjoys the nice run-up in prices to support his domestic programs (throwng a bone to the population) squeezing all he can as he most likely still remembers as Venezuela was on the brink of bankrupcy just some 8 years ago when the price was just slightly above $10 and the cost of production in Venezuela happened to be over $8. Wonder if he still pays his workers the same $8 , such a caring fellow. >> Part of the profit from the oil he sells to the US is to compensate the oil sales to Nicaragua, Cuba and otherneedy countries for a quarter of the price of the market. Yeah, and he also sends a few barrels of heating oil to poor families of New York City every winter. What a nice guy. C'mon Sean, be serious - a paratroper colonel turned communist? He sure wears red shirts sometimes, but other than that... wonder what country he keeps his bank accounts in?
I don't think the US really harasses him. >> they have systematically fuelled/financed the opposition's cries for strikes against the Chavez politics. It's not harassment. Only when someone poses a real (or percieved ) threat to the economy, only then the big money (das Kapital) takes measure. Extreme cases are Noriega and Saddam. We need his oil and he needs our $$. So any tough talk from both sides is just a little show for the masses .
You take him too seriously. >>> I wish I did. As I said I don't mind him support those left wing gov't of Latin America, but making technology pacts with Iran is very dumb.
THe mullahs are quite pragmatic their fanaticism notwithstanding - they keep selling their oil to the West. And I doubt the Bush admin appreciates, after he freely breaks the Cuban embargo by shipping oil for a few cigars, therefore allowing for the Castrist to survive longer The Cuban embargo has been a unilateral action of the US. Chavez didn't break it (Canada always maintained economic ties with Cuba). Cuban cigars and sugar are not essential commodities for the US. Cuba is rarely mentioned here lately. |
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: May 29 2007 at 23:10 |
tuxon wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
[Venezuela was on the brink of bakrupcy just some 8 years ago |
Is Venezuela still on the brink of bankrupcy? |
No idea. Is it?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20414
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 05:32 |
IVNORD wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
If he fought the US imperialism he would have stopped selling us his oil. Instead he enjoys the nice run-up in prices to support his domestic programs (throwng a bone to the population) squeezing all he can as he most likely still remembers as Venezuela was on the brink of bankrupcy just some 8 years ago when the price was just slightly above $10 and the cost of production in Venezuela happened to be over $8. Wonder if he still pays his workers the same $8 , such a caring fellow. >> Part of the profit from the oil he sells to the US is to compensate the oil sales to Nicaragua, Cuba and otherneedy countries for a quarter of the price of the market. Yeah, and he also sends a few barrels of heating oil to poor families of New York City every winter. What a nice guy. C'mon Sean, be serious - a paratroper colonel turned communist? He sure wears red shirts sometimes, but other than that... wonder what country he keeps his bank accounts in? You know you can be high-ranked in the army and be communist. The British had a bunch of Communists Colonels during the cold war (usually concentrated in the colonies like India) as incredible as it may seem
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Edited by Sean Trane - May 30 2007 at 05:33
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 06:14 |
Back on the main topic, it looks like he's making a habit of it:
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 08:42 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
If he fought the US imperialism he would have stopped selling us his oil. Instead he enjoys the nice run-up in prices to support his domestic programs (throwng a bone to the population) squeezing all he can as he most likely still remembers as Venezuela was on the brink of bankrupcy just some 8 years ago when the price was just slightly above $10 and the cost of production in Venezuela happened to be over $8. Wonder if he still pays his workers the same $8 , such a caring fellow. >> Part of the profit from the oil he sells to the US is to compensate the oil sales to Nicaragua, Cuba and otherneedy countries for a quarter of the price of the market. Yeah, and he also sends a few barrels of heating oil to poor families of New York City every winter. What a nice guy. C'mon Sean, be serious - a paratroper colonel turned communist? He sure wears red shirts sometimes, but other than that... wonder what country he keeps his bank accounts in? You know you can be high-ranked in the army and be communist. The British had a bunch of Communists Colonels during the cold war (usually concentrated in the colonies like India) as incredible as it may seem
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I’m sure there are lots of communist colonels in the Cuban army too. The British ones are just another English peculiarity. If Colonel Chavez is a genuine communist it’s even worse as he possesses all dictatorial qualities needed for the job, just re-read Chus posts. Strangely you don’t see striking similarities between communism and your beloved religion. The same tactics – what’s written on paper is used to achieve ulterior individuals goals.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 09:37 |
Syzygy wrote:
Back on the main topic, it looks like he's making a habit of it:
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And again it seems Chavez is right, I think the rightwinged TV stations do have a secret agenda, which involves murdering Chavez.
My guess is there will be an assasination attempt at mr Chavez before the summer is over, i hope I'm wrong, but there are indications there will either bve a violent overtrow of the government with outside (read USA) help, or a murder (again facilitated by USA).
Shutting down dangerous propaganda vehicles is not a limitation of freedom of speech, in fact shutting these down will ensure freedom of speech.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 10:39 |
tuxon wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
Back on the main topic, it looks like he's making a habit of it:
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And again it seems Chavez is right, I think the rightwinged TV stations do have a secret agenda, which involves murdering Chavez.
My guess is there will be an assasination attempt at mr Chavez before the summer is over, i hope I'm wrong, but there are indications there will either bve a violent overtrow of the government with outside (read USA) help, or a murder (again facilitated by USA). Assasination not as simple a strategy as it used to be 50-60 years ago. It produces rather a negative effect. In addition, there must be a wide-spread dissent in the country and the army in particular, and to the contrary, Mr. Chavez seems to be quite popular. Besides, Mr. Chavez isn't that dangerous since he mostly talks. Just wait until he shows his true colors and his personal bank accounts surface somewhere in Switzerland.
Shutting down dangerous propaganda vehicles is not a limitation of freedom of speech, in fact shutting these down will ensure freedom of speech for left-wing propaganda vehicles. Have you ever considered re-writing encyclopedic definitions? you may prove to be a valuable asset for that purpose. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: May 30 2007 at 14:05 |
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The use of the "bully" pulpit as they call it in the States is worrying in a country like Venezuela. Unlike more "mature" democracies that provide for guaranteed freedom of speech, the simple threat from the nation's leader can eliminate that hallowed right. Let's face it - no opposition, no rebuttal, no questioning leaves one unable to make informed decisions, even when you're a popular or populist leader.
Comparison may be made to the current media battle in Russia. Putin is strong enough as the Russian "neo-tsar" to tell other countries that his country will do what is right for it, i.e. what he thinks is best for his government. The U.S. and the western democracies will not go too far to in aggravating the russian bear. Venezuela on the other hand, is fair game. This is not to say that Chavez doesn't deserve the attention focused on his pressing the press to be less "obstructive" to his wishes & goals. Just that as always, the double standard of letting the mighty (Russia, China, Singapore et al) get away with something that we abhor in smaller countries (Venezuela, Cuba, any other country you care to mention).
It would be great for history's sake (and the country's) if Chavez allowed wide open discussion, as this would likely strengthen his hand in dealing with the U.S. & also gain him support in the world, or at the very least - less international opposition.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 17:08 |
IVNORD wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Sean,
I don't know why it never occured to me that you are a radical as you have conformed to every definition in my book... I like radicals, they usually honest and well-intentioned guys, though grossly confused... >> I was never a radical, but have voted left wing for most of my life. But in Europe and especially in Southern Belgium, the Socialist party has become more the problem than the solution >> they almost incite people to stay at home and not get jobs so that they can profit from programmes etc.. (>> if you want more >> In a PM). Power corrupts.
So for the first time in my life, I am actually contemplating voting for the liberals (I hate conservateur or Christian democrats as they called themselves) next month in the national elections, just because it is time to send the socialist in the opposition for a renewal of the people. Indeed the left has become so corrupt and rotten and they are not able (or worse, lack the will) to get rid of the rotten apples in the basket.
Chavez is a pathetic opportunist. He does not fight the US imperialism. It's a smoke screen to achieve his personal goals. I don't know exactly what goals and I don't care to know as he is of little significance. >> Chavez is so far rolling for the Amerindians majority of his country who own less than 5% of the wealth of the country. This is why he nationalized the oil industry. The key word here is "majority." Typical populist tactics.
If he fought the US imperialism he would have stopped selling us his oil. Instead he enjoys the nice run-up in prices to support his domestic programs (throwng a bone to the population) squeezing all he can as he most likely still remembers as Venezuela was on the brink of bankrupcy just some 8 years ago when the price was just slightly above $10 and the cost of production in Venezuela happened to be over $8. Wonder if he still pays his workers the same $8 , such a caring fellow. >> Part of the profit from the oil he sells to the US is to compensate the oil sales to Nicaragua, Cuba and otherneedy countries for a quarter of the price of the market. Yeah, and he also sends a few barrels of heating oil to poor families of New York City every winter. What a nice guy. C'mon Sean, be serious - a paratroper colonel turned communist? He sure wears red shirts sometimes, but other than that... wonder what country he keeps his bank accounts in?
I don't think the US really harasses him. >> they have systematically fuelled/financed the opposition's cries for strikes against the Chavez politics. It's not harassment. Only when someone poses a real (or percieved ) threat to the economy, only then the big money (das Kapital) takes measure. Extreme cases are Noriega and Saddam. We need his oil and he needs our $$. So any tough talk from both sides is just a little show for the masses .
You take him too seriously. >>> I wish I did. As I said I don't mind him support those left wing gov't of Latin America, but making technology pacts with Iran is very dumb.
THe mullahs are quite pragmatic their fanaticism notwithstanding - they keep selling their oil to the West. And I doubt the Bush admin appreciates, after he freely breaks the Cuban embargo by shipping oil for a few cigars, therefore allowing for the Castrist to survive longer The Cuban embargo has been a unilateral action of the US. Chavez didn't break it (Canada always maintained economic ties with Cuba). Cuban cigars and sugar are not essential commodities for the US. Cuba is rarely mentioned here lately. |
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IVNORD is right, Chavez doesn't really care about the people, and his anti-imperialist propaganda is to bring out social resentment among the low classes, so that they couldn't care less if the rich fall down a dumpster, as they have nothing to lose, and nothing to win either really. Who knows how many negociations does he hold secretly with Bush, as well as Fidel supposedly does behind the scenes (ask the hotel owners in Cuba, and how tourists pay in $, at least from what I heard). These "leaders" just care about themselves, and for me those who take advantage of the population don't deserve any word in defense (as well as those who violate human rights, like your good friend Chavez, who attempts against private property, life, freedom of speech, physical integrity, etc.). We (the students) are protesting pacifically and Chavez's minions are causing chaos as to say that we are the violent ones, so he can have an excuse to bring his militar partisans to repress civilians and to establish officially his dictatorship.
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Jesus Gabriel
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: May 31 2007 at 17:14 |
tuxon wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
Back on the main topic, it looks like he's making a habit of it:
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And again it seems Chavez is right, I think the rightwinged TV stations do have a secret agenda, which involves murdering Chavez.
My guess is there will be an assasination attempt at mr Chavez before the summer is over, i hope I'm wrong, but there are indications there will either bve a violent overtrow of the government with outside (read USA) help, or a murder (again facilitated by USA).
Shutting down dangerous propaganda vehicles is not a limitation of freedom of speech, in fact shutting these down will ensure freedom of speech. |
Oh please, all that channel (Globovision) did was to put old images of the most important events that RCTV had covered throughout it's history (that included an assasination attempt to pope John Paul the II, AMONG OTHER THINGS like the arrival at the moon), and the music by Ruben Blades talked about hope, so Chavez is looking for the minimal excuse, searching for the cat's fifth leg, so he linked what was a product of randomness to say that the media is planning (or inspiring) an assasination attempt against him; he just wants to screw with the only honest channel left, so he can do whatever he wants with inmunity. Whoever believes that's true must not be right in the head, really (this is not personally regarding you, tux, just a general note, I suggest you read the entire article)
And their accusations are correct, the students were protesting pacifically, I know because I WAS THERE with them, when suddenly the so-called police started throwing tear-gas bombs and pellets to repress us. And yesterday another pacific march, when hordes of Chavez's minions started to cause distortion so the police had an excuse to repress. On tuesday around 50 underaged students were taken by the police just because they were in the midst of a pacific protest, and the authorities refused to let the parents feed/see them (and they are in the brink of being judged in a criminal court, which is meant to adults... they should be judged in a special court, although they shouldn't be judged for exterting their right to protest for freedom!) , and this morning 2 students from an university were shot in the head by Chavez's adepts (I don't know if it was the police or the civilians). Also, another horde of Chavecists were shooting FROM A GOVERNMENT BUILDING against the protestants; the video was shot by a common civilian, from a perfect angle.
EDIT: Something which I forgot to mention there was something that the private media didn't cover, consisting of a hostage situation we witnessed this morning at the Universitary Clinic in the "Universidad Central de Venezuela" (my university), in which the employers (Chavez's adepts) invaded the clinic in a violent way, putting at risk the lives of the patients and beating up medicine students and camera men from the only honest private channel left (Globovision), as well as calling the students imperialism pets, fascists, etc. supposedly, some students were also taken hostage in the clinic and there is a civil watch going on there. I couldn't stay longer because I am feeling a bit sick, but planning to go there tomorrow if the situation persists.
Edited by Chus - May 31 2007 at 17:53
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Jesus Gabriel
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 00:16 |
Chus wrote:
Who knows how many negociations does he hold secretly with Bush, They probably contact each other from time to time, but it may be out of administrative necessity. I don’t think either one derives any pleasure from those contacts.
as well as Fidel supposedly does behind the scenes (ask the hotel owners in Cuba, and how tourists pay in $, at least from what I heard). Fidel’s status transformed from being a thorn in the butt during the Kennedy administration into a tick on a rhinoceros’ hide – it’s there but it’s irrelevant. I don’t think US presidents talk to Fidel.
We (the students) are protesting pacifically and Chavez's minions are causing chaos as to say that we are the violent ones, so he can have an excuse to bring his militar partisans to repress civilians and to establish officially his dictatorship. Peaceful protests per se never achieved anything except for a few bruises, black eyes or bleeding heads. It’s a prerogative of youth. Things are sorted out in a different way. Ideological perversions and slogans fall apart when confronted by economic reality. It may be unpleasant to live without freedom of speech but peaceful protests will not help it in any way.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 01:41 |
Let me tell you something guys, when the title of Constitutional President or Prime minister is not enough for a person you're almost always before a dictator:
- General Pinochet
- Generalísimo Francisco Franco
- Comandante Fidel Castro
- General Stroessner
- General Juan Velazco Alvarado
- General Chávez
- Fuhrer
- Duce
If the Governor uses a military rank instead of President he's proving his first loyalty is with the military and that he is going to use Military methods to control the situation.
People who don't live in South America don't know the reality we live, if a military takes the Government he will surely:
- Silence oposition
- Take control of the strategic resources (Communications, Oil, electricity and Media.
- Change Constitution to be re-elected as many times as he wants
- Acuse everybody of Anti- Patriotism and treason.
- Support candidates of the same line in the region
- Get the support of a famous dictator.
- Use the image of a freedom icon (San Martin, Bolivar, Tupac Amaru, etc) to support his acts.
How many of this things has Chavez done?.......................So what do you expect?
It's yellow, has feathers and says quack...it's a duck.
Uses uniform and Presidential band...it's a dictator.
Iván
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 07:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Let me tell you something guys, when the title of Constitutional President or Prime minister is not enough for a person you're almost always before a dictator:
- General Pinochet
- Generalísimo Francisco Franco
- Comandante Fidel Castro
- General Stroessner
- General Juan Velazco Alvarado
- General Chávez
- Fuhrer
- Duce
If the Governor uses a military rank instead of President he's proving his first loyalty is with the military and that he is going to use Military methods to control the situation.
People who don't live in South America don't know the reality we live, if a military takes the Government he will surely:
- Silence oposition
- Take control of the strategic resources (Communications, Oil, electricity and Media.
- Change Constitution to be re-elected as many times as he wants
- Acuse everybody of Anti- Patriotism and treason.
- Support candidates of the same line in the region
- Get the support of a famous dictator.
- Use the image of a freedom icon (San Martin, Bolivar, Tupac Amaru, etc) to support his acts.
How many of this things has Chavez done?.......................So what do you expect?
It's yellow, has feathers and says quack...it's a duck.
Uses uniform and Presidential band...it's a dictator.
Iván
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Ivan,
What is the piont of your fiery philippic?
I think Chus is saying it all along
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 09:36 |
IVNORD wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Let me tell you something guys, when the title of Constitutional President or Prime minister is not enough for a person you're almost always before a dictator:
- General Pinochet
- Generalísimo Francisco Franco
- Comandante Fidel Castro
- General Stroessner
- General Juan Velazco Alvarado
- General Chávez
- Fuhrer
- Duce
If the Governor uses a military rank instead of President he's proving his first loyalty is with the military and that he is going to use Military methods to control the situation.
People who don't live in South America don't know the reality we live, if a military takes the Government he will surely:
- Silence oposition
- Take control of the strategic resources (Communications, Oil, electricity and Media.
- Change Constitution to be re-elected as many times as he wants
- Acuse everybody of Anti- Patriotism and treason.
- Support candidates of the same line in the region
- Get the support of a famous dictator.
- Use the image of a freedom icon (San Martin, Bolivar, Tupac Amaru, etc) to support his acts.
How many of this things has Chavez done?.......................So what do you expect?
It's yellow, has feathers and says quack...it's a duck.
Uses uniform and Presidential band...it's a dictator.
Iván
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Ivan,
What is the piont of your fiery philippic?
I think Chus is saying it all along |
I'm sure Ivŕn agrees with Chus here, just backing his arguments.
And I think that Ivŕn's post is almost perfectly outlining the SA situation re: dictators. Which indeed makes Chavez at least look like a potential dictator but certainly an autoritarian leader.
The only thing I'd like to point out is that dictators at one pouint or anoither confiscated the democratic process of their country (even Fujimori did, as he was elected first than took over), but Chavez has been elected twice, and nothing permits to say he will not allow future elections. This is where I say that he is not YET a dictator, but he has strong tendencies to become one.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 09:54 |
Sean Trane wrote:
but Chavez has been elected twice, and nothing permits to say he will not allow future elections. Just wait and see. As soon as internal enemies of law and order are found. And they are not too hard to come by as Chus is probably getting ready for another peaceful demonstration as we speak. This is where I say that he is not YET a dictator, but he has strong tendencies to become one. |
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 11:32 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Let me tell you something guys, when the title of Constitutional President or Prime minister is not enough for a person you're almost always before a dictator:
- General Pinochet
- Generalísimo Francisco Franco
- Comandante Fidel Castro
- General Stroessner
- General Juan Velazco Alvarado
- General Chávez
- Fuhrer
- Duce
If the Governor uses a military rank instead of President he's proving his first loyalty is with the military and that he is going to use Military methods to control the situation.
People who don't live in South America don't know the reality we live, if a military takes the Government he will surely:
- Silence oposition
- Take control of the strategic resources (Communications, Oil, electricity and Media.
- Change Constitution to be re-elected as many times as he wants
- Acuse everybody of Anti- Patriotism and treason.
- Support candidates of the same line in the region
- Get the support of a famous dictator.
- Use the image of a freedom icon (San Martin, Bolivar, Tupac Amaru, etc) to support his acts.
How many of this things has Chavez done?.......................So what do you expect?
It's yellow, has feathers and says quack...it's a duck.
Uses uniform and Presidential band...it's a dictator.
Iván
|
Ivan,
What is the piont of your fiery philippic?
I think Chus is saying it all along |
I'm sure Ivŕn agrees with Chus here, just backing his arguments.
And I think that Ivŕn's post is almost perfectly outlining the SA situation re: dictators. Which indeed makes Chavez at least look like a potential dictator but certainly an autoritarian leader.
The only thing I'd like to point out is that dictators at one pouint or anoither confiscated the democratic process of their country (even Fujimori did, as he was elected first than took over), but Chavez has been elected twice, and nothing permits to say he will not allow future elections. This is where I say that he is not YET a dictator, but he has strong tendencies to become one. |
True, though doubts are that the election process was a clean one, remember that one of the biggest campaign marches in history was Rosales' one, and it was obvious that he was the favourite, just by moving that amount of people to the streets. There were irregularities in the process, some voters couldn't even speak spanish, to say one thing, ID's were duplicated, triplicated, quadruplicated, and it was obvious when you entered different ID's in the electoral registry site and the data was all the same, including the residency. It's easy to have a corrupt electoral process when you have all the powers in favour, including a General Prosecutor who was with the government party.
About what has happened until now: Last night, the 75 (they were 75 underaged students) were left free but with a warning. Also last night the Viceminister of National Security scheduled an appointment with some of the leaders of this protest (who are ALL students, not politicians) and when they arrived they were told to go back because the Viceminister had another appointment... very convenient.
Also abuse seems to come mostly outside Caracas, where more deaths had been registered because of this protest, and more police abuse. It's easy when Globovision (the only anti-Chavez channel left) was left without microwaves, as they were "confiscated" sometime ago.
Edited by Chus - June 01 2007 at 11:36
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Jesus Gabriel
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 01 2007 at 11:49 |
IVNORD wrote:
Chus wrote:
Who knows how many negociations does he hold secretly with Bush, They probably contact each other from time to time, but it may be out of administrative necessity. I don’t think either one derives any pleasure from those contacts.
as well as Fidel supposedly does behind the scenes (ask the hotel owners in Cuba, and how tourists pay in $, at least from what I heard). Fidel’s status transformed from being a thorn in the butt during the Kennedy administration into a tick on a rhinoceros’ hide – it’s there but it’s irrelevant. I don’t think US presidents talk to Fidel.
We (the students) are protesting pacifically and Chavez's minions are causing chaos as to say that we are the violent ones, so he can have an excuse to bring his militar partisans to repress civilians and to establish officially his dictatorship. Peaceful protests per se never achieved anything except for a few bruises, black eyes or bleeding heads. It’s a prerogative of youth. Things are sorted out in a different way. Ideological perversions and slogans fall apart when confronted by economic reality. It may be unpleasant to live without freedom of speech but peaceful protests will not help it in any way.
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Lech Walesa, Ghandi, Martin Luther King.... just some examples of pacific revolutions. Of course this doesn't mean we don't have a right to legitimate defense, but we try our best not to arise in violence
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Jesus Gabriel
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