How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"? |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15104 |
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So it is. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15104 |
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No, it doesn't, on the contrary, and here we go once again, Cristi. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15104 |
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But there's always this question how we want to define and classify, and why.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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always? Suitkees answered that already on the previous page.
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earlyprog
Collaborator Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2133 |
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I still want you to explain why you want to 'define' differently than PA. After all this is PA not Allmusic.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15104 |
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When I'm ready for it and find it appropriate to do, I'll do it - even I'd say, there's an okay answer for such question in all my posts in this blog if somebody's in hurry. Besides that, I haven't seen a really definition of Progressive Rock on PA which I can compare with my own, or maybe the two I want to use at the time I want to answer a question like this. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Psychedelic Paul
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 39999 |
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We all have our own definitions of what is and what isn't prog, and that's perfectly fine. For instance, I disagree with Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Miles Davis, Roxy Music & Talk Talk being classed as prog, but I'm glad they're all here on ProgArchives. The more the merrier in my view.
Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 17 2022 at 12:24 |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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No, we do not, and no, it's not fine. if everyone came with their own definition of things, there would not be any consensus in anything. I can make my own list of bands I do not think should be here on PA, but that does not mean i have my own definition of what prog is. |
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Online Points: 15104 |
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Something else, in the thread "Plans on PA for becoming an all-music site?" some collaborators are argueing for expanding/changing the understanding of Prog on PA, so it's not only me who might like to "define" differently. |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Yes we do. At least, I do. I agree with Paul regarding the artists he cites: I myself would never have considered them to be prog, and I still don't, despite PA's classification. There will never be a consensus on the definition of what prog is anyway, so don't consider whatever definition as the only valid one. Not even PA's. It isn't. It never will be.
Edited by suitkees - August 17 2022 at 12:39 |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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Not what I meant at all. As collabs, we often talk what artist is to accepted or not, and believe it or not we agree more than we disagree. So there is consensus.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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^ That's not what I'm talking about. There can be consensus between collaborators about which artist to accept or not to enter the PA database, that does not at all affect an eventual definition of what is "prog" or not. You can have a consensus about an artist/an album, but you probably will never have consensus about what is exactly prog.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I don't remember seeing any of that in that thread, quotes please.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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but how can we agree or disagree whether an artist is progressive or not if we do not have a consensus on what is prog or what makes an artist progressive.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Haha..! Well, that's a problem for you, Collaborators. You have your standards/instructions and/or sub-genre definitions that may be your guidelines. But your decisions do not necessarily meet with an approval of the "general" public, and the genre (or sub-genre) attributed to an artist may not be satisfactory to everyone.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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I give up. I don't even like this topic, what am I doing here?!
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14698 |
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"We agree more than we disagree" is a much weaker statement than "there is consensus". Just saying.
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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We agree because of consensus. Disagreements are rare which is a great thing. What am I missing here?
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14698 |
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I'd say that consensus is constituted by agreement, rather than being a cause of it. You have consensus to the degree that you agree, and no further. By the way, as Prog Reviewer I can watch the team threads and disagreement isn't that rare in my perception. Yes, you agree more than you disagree, but there's enough disagreement to find the statement that there is overall consensus dubious (I'm not specifically referring to teams of which you are a member). Generally I think that you miss the fact that pragmatic use and degrees of agreement are not criteria of truth or correctness. Yes it is useful and pragmatic to have well defined genres and in a team it is useful to try to agree on genre definitions. The PA definitions result from a long negotiation process and have been changed at times. There are some inclusions and exclusions with which a number of collaborators don't agree, and things may change in the future. The PA definitions are pragmatic to a certain extent and they are agreed to a certain extent, as the current manifestation of the negotiation process that may go on. However they do not refer to any objective truth; they are constructed in this way not because this is the only correct way of doing it, but because something like this is needed, so some agreement should be reached, which could as well be different, but now it is like this. The current definitions can be defended on pragmatic grounds, but they are ultimately not binding for anyone outside the process in which they are used, i.e., for accepting, rejecting, and categorising PA entries. Who does not take part in this can well have different personal definitions (or refer to different places where there are different categories); actually this even holds for collabs as long as they are not specifically involved in such decisions, and in fact even if involved in such decisions, as disagreement may be rare but happens. (Though I'd probably agree with you thinking that if somebody comes up with some ad hoc genre definitions and claims that these are better than those of PA based on the odd decision that they don't like, we can suspect that this person underestimates the thought, effort, and controversy that has gone into the PA definitions and may well underestimate their power.)
Edited by Lewian - August 17 2022 at 15:11 |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43564 |
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I was just trying to say everyone coming with their own definition(s) is a bad idea. Next time I'll be more careful to not get baited in threads about definitions and classifications...
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