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ProgShine 
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 04 2005 Location: Kalisz, Poland Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
 Posted: October 21 2012 at 19:31 |
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There's a inexplicable force in, for example, listen to THAT album when you're travelling by bus to that place you really want to go. Or for example, you and your brother singing out loud with that cd in your car. Music's life and life is happening all around us. Stop seeing it as numbers and charts and let's have a better life, Catcher10 (José) and rogerthat already agree with me. Cmon guys, let's ride the train of music  with no boundaries, that's Prog, not a format.  |
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https://progshinerecords.bandcamp.com
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: October 21 2012 at 19:54 |
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^^^ Have to say though that I have completely stopped listening to music on the commute, viz, on headphones/earphones. It's nice to cut out all the noise and just zero in on the details but it's not so good for the ears and that I am afraid is a much less subjective statement than many made on this thread. The flipside is I use the speakers a lot more to listen to my CDs than I used to.
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 21 2012 at 19:55 |
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How can I explain this? ... I don't see it as numbers and charts. I never have and I never will and my life is good enough thank you.
(I'm probably not being clear enough.)
Music is music. Technical specs are Technical specs. How things work is how things work. What you like is what you like.
The whole point of all of the numbers and charts and long-winded technical explanations that fly over the heads of non-technical people is to show that what people find to be "best" or "far superior" is NOT based upon science or numbers or charts, that it is simply a matter of personal likes and preferences. If you like the sound of music played through a digital system it is not because it is "better" and if you like the sound of music played through an analogue system it is not because it is "better" - it's just what you prefer. This is the only point I have been making since my first post in this thread on Page 1.
If you don't understand number and charts or how things work then there's nothing I can do about that but that's not a problem because it doesn't matter whether you do or not. If you don't like them then don't read them. If you like music for what it is without "hearing" the technology that supports it then science and technology has done its job, and the numbers and charts have proven their worth to those who do understand them, because the people who do understand them are the people who invent, design and build this stuff.
Edited by Dean - October 21 2012 at 19:58 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: October 21 2012 at 19:59 |
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I thought that comment was directed to Surrealist because he's the one who seems to find it mighty difficult to listen to music on certain mediums.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 21 2012 at 20:01 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 21 2012 at 20:03 |
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ProgShine
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 04 2005 Location: Kalisz, Poland Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
Posted: October 21 2012 at 20:46 |
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Always knew that, it's just like, someone that says 80's music (New Wave, Post Punk, Jangle Pop and so on) is the best ever. It's not based in facts, it's based on how the person feel about that and that music was part of his/her life in that specific years. Dean, to tell you the truth, I understand why you're posting about tech talk, I realise you're trying to 'prove' (not really prove, I know) that it's not about data, it's about ears and preference, the things I read here says you have the knowledgement, but will not stop listening something cause 'the other format is better'. I was just trying to light down a bit, but I guess my emotional aspects on music will not make people think like me, am I right? So I guess I should leave the topic for a good cause and go to listen my Gonzaguinha CDs   Edited by ProgShine - October 21 2012 at 20:48 |
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https://progshinerecords.bandcamp.com
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 00:50 |
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Analog played on a proper set up sounds much better. Richer, deeper bass, more realistic highs. It's the job of science to explain why this is.. not to discredit and write off what mine and others ears hear so clearly as just preference. I believe that GOOD science would explain this.. and if science cannot, then it is missing a key ingredient. It could be how the listener experiences analog vs digital in the body.
All I have heard here is that digital sampling of a sound wave should sound better than an unsampled sound wave being recorded. It's simply illogical to say the least. Are some CD recording devices better than others even though the "specs" say they sample at the same rate? If it is just converting 1's and 0's at 44k 16 bit... does a direct feed into a Mac differ from a PC or the software being used, or if the interface if Protools or a Firepod? Even if it is recorded at 24 bit, it must be dithered down to 16 to fit on a CD. Does that not degrade the sound? It sure does. I have recorded enough music to know. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 09:41 |
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These are subjective terms. I know that doesn't mean anything to you because they are all good and valid to you, but they have no universal meaning - my understanding and meaning of "more realistic" is not going to be the same as yours, or Tom's or Dick's or Harry's. Moreover, when I play the same pieces of music on the same set-up, (whether that is analogue or digital or some Heath Robinson/Rube Goldberg/Storm Petersen contraption with an arrangement of levers, pumps, pulleys and Victorian ear-trumpets), to a dozen different people I will get a dozen different subjective opinions of what that all sounded like. So even when they use words like better, richer, deeper and more realistic that still does not necessarily imply they all mean the same things to all people. And if you cannot define those in words that everyone will agree with and agree to stick to when using them then what chance does anyone have of explaining what those differences in subjective opinion all mean.
The only person who sees it as a discredit or who is seeing it as a write-off is you. If you say Neapolitan ice cream is better than vanilla then how is that am I discrediting Neapolitan ice cream if I say that it is not better, it is that just you prefer Neapolitan? But if you say you believe Neapolitan ice cream is far superior to vanilla because it's made from three different ice creams which makes it three times bigger and I prove that isn't the case by showing that both vanilla and neapolitan are the same size, then I haven't discretitted or written-off your preference, just your misconception of why you believe it is far superior - you still prefer Neapolitan to vanilla - nothing has changed..
If it needs explaining by the application of "magic", (which is another name for this "missing key ingredient", that will turn your subjective opinion into indefatigable objective truth), then it is not science and it certainly isn't good science. If you can "experience" (another word for "sense") the difference between analogue and digital "in the body" then that is supernatural and paranormal and that does not require (or expect) science to explain it. If by any chance you thought that drawing around the edge of CD discs with a green pen made them sound better then that was magic, not science. I have already explained that systems are different and provided graphs that show that. If we record the vanilla sound of a musical performance using a Starmax onboard ADC then we will get a vanilla flavoured sound recording. However, if we use a Otari MX80 @ 15ips (the blue line in the following graph)  ...then what will the effect of the +2dB hump at 70Hz do to that vanilla sound? Will it boost those bass notes and make them deeper and richer or will it reduce them and make them thinner and weaker? (if you only ever answer one direct question in this thread then answer that one). What will the effect of the little 1dB dip at 150Hz have? Will it separate the bass notes from the rest of the music a little and make them sound a little more punchy, or will it muddle them up and make them less clear? Whatever the effect is, what it means is the sound is no longer vanilla. It's still vanilla from about 400Hz up, but below that it's Richer and Deeper and more chocolaty. Similarly other characteristic performances of other pieces analogue equipment in the production chain will have their own affect on that vanilla sound, adding their own colourations and subtle enhancements that make it all sound much more pleasing to you. Perhaps there is some part of the process that is affecting the highs, (wherever they are or whatever they may be ... is that the top-note of a piano or the ring of a china cymbal or some inaudible supersonics... because all three of those are distinctly different in terms of where they exist on the frequency spectrum), adding some realistic notes to the vanilla sound like the freshness of real fresh strawberries. But now what is coming out of your analogue set-up isn't the vanilla sound of the original musical performance you were trying to record - it's now got a nice richer deeper bottom layer, a smooth vanilla middle layer and a nice realistic top layer ... not unlike this:  And there is nothing wrong with Neapolitan ice cream if you prefer it.
That's a strawman fallacy. No one has said that and certainly not I - that wouldn't just be illogical, it would be stupid, just as they would be illogical and stupid to say that an analogue recording of a sound wave should sound better than the sound wave being recorded.
Of course. No one here (or anywhere) is claiming otherwise, that would be a foolish thing to do. All Analogue to Digital converters and all Digital to Analogue converters have transfer characteristics, just as every amplifier and every speaker has a transfer characteristic. We know what these are and we can measure them. A professional studio quality ADC that converts the audio signal into a series of data-words has a linearity that is measure in fractions of an LSB, this we can convert into an ideal THD value and we can compare that to the actual THD value we can measure from the device: professional audio ADC have ideal THD values approaching -150dB which when combined with the actual measured noise-floor give measurable values in the order of -87dB to -105dB - there is nothing secretive or hidden about those figures - all manufacturers publish them and anyone with the right equipment can measure them. And then design engineers put those ADCs into pcbs that will either become outboard studio quality samplers or into PC or MAC sound-cards that aren't quite so studio quality and the overall performance drops off a little more because of the quality of the analogue signal the feeds into them isn't quite as clean and good as it could be because the preamplifers aren't as good and the environment of the PC or MAC isn't as clean as the one in the outboard ADC box. And again there is nothing secretive or hidden about that. The degradations are in the analogue domain so they will affect the audio - this is inescapable. But, what you are implying is all that is measurably worse than an equivalent analogue recorder, and I'm saying it isn't ... I'm saying it most certainly has an effect, it's just not worse than analogue recorders and vinyl recordings. If you prefer the analogue and really don't like the digital then that is perfectly fine and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't like chocolate or strawberry ice cream.
That's good then. Now I've taken the time and effort to answer your questions and address your comments perhaps you would do me the courtesy of answering just one of mine?
 Edited by Dean - October 23 2012 at 10:22 |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7868 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 11:10 |
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7868 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 11:22 |
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 this statement Dean, that you made is absolutely right. There is no better or worse in this context between analogue and digital. It's a matter of preference or style. For me personally, Digital works best to my ears. I like a big bright dynamic sound and Digital sound formating/recording I feel does a better job. Scientificly it shows it does a better job with the use of frequency and wavelength graphs. This is why I'm a digital man, but at the same time I know that my sound preference is a bit subjective and I can't say that what I like is better definitively towards an analogue lover. Most importantly, we are all individuals and some of us hear things differently than others. Over the years I've had to take that into account not to step on anyone's toes. ;)
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 11:27 |
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^
 I don't know what you intended there, but the use of the sleepy smiley seems just a little insulting to me.
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7868 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 12:12 |
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Didn't want to seem over zealous. I am being completely sincere though. I agree with your statements and actually a lot of what you ve been saying on this forum. Please don't take that in any other way.  . Also I would be curious to know what type of sound works for you?? I'm a dynamic man myself with a little extra bass boost. Also, when I pair my I pod up to my amp I always select the FLAT sound Equalization because I feel it gives the best balance and clarity to whatever type of music I'm listening to, especially prog/electronic. Balancing the lows-mids-highs of the sound spectrum to an equal FLAT line I feel works very well with the headphones I have as well. What do you prefer when your having a listening experience with your favourites??
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 12:16 |
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I like smiley face
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7868 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 12:24 |
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 right back ya my friend.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 12:59 |
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You said you like a flat line.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:03 |
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I have learnt that flat response is the best compromise. Sometimes you hear a recording that feels like it needs a bit of boost or cut here and there and that's fine, but whatever setting works for that will sound terrible on the next album you play, so you tweek the controls again and then the next one sounds a little off and so on. It's easier to leave them alone and accept what the producer wanted you to hear. Of course there is always the possibility that the producer mixed the album with the bass boosted on his play-back system so when you get to hear his final mix played through your system with the controls levelled it's all a bit meh...
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7868 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:06 |
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FLAT EQ setting generally brings out the most clarity in your music because your not making things like trebal and bass out of whack or extremely out of balance. If you have too much treble the sound will sound too bright and crispy. If you have too much bass, sound usually tends to be very muffled and you don't get the full picture when you do that. Anyway, if you have quality sound products like a solid amp and incredible headphones let them do their job. If ya mess around with the equalization you'll screw things up a lot, but then again it all depends on what type of music your listening to.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 7969 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:15 |
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I wonder how many more graphs Dean will post here to explain Surrealist things he does not want to understand.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:18 |
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I'm going to keep posting the same one over and over again.
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the importance of analog sound in prog
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Catcher10 wrote:
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