American Politics the 2016 edition |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 08:42 | ||
Let's get real and stop living in a bygone dem vs repub nostalgia land. American politics has become the politics of Race. That is why Trump is President. Until you, and others that think like you, understand that, we will have Hillary all over again. Except that that her name will be Jennifer Warren. And Trump will be still be at the wheel. And Dems like you will once again be scratching your heads at the end of 2019.
Edited by SteveG - February 04 2017 at 08:43 |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 08:55 | ||
that view is so overly simplified that it isn't even true. American politics have become the politics of the elite though. as short as Trump's presidency is so far it begins to look more and more like a coup d'état . it is however a new kind of coup d'état that is without precedence Edited by BaldJean - February 04 2017 at 08:57 |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:11 | ||
Over simplified, my ass. When you have a hate monger that claims for years that the African American President is not an American citizen, in order to play up to a supposedly forgotten majority, fails to apologize for it when he drops his accusation 6 years later and is eventually voted in as President himself, then that's racism in it's most lethal and covert form.
If you also would be more comfortable hiding behind the power elite's theory, then please be my guest. It does have some merit, as the Dems are guilty of not pointing out to the American working class that it was the Obama administration that save the American auto industry, and hence, auto manufacturing jobs, but that's little to hold on to when you're not blind to the bigger picture. As I said, your ilk can either wake up or continue to have Trump as King. It's your choice.
Edited by SteveG - February 04 2017 at 09:27 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:33 | ||
While I agree lots of Dems are stuck in the past, (no offense Mick) and I fear this thinking will blow the opportunity of 2020, I think this extreme focus solely on race is a bit misguided as well. I mean, there's LOTS of groups that vote and there's LOTS of factors that influence people. In lots of areas it was Trump's pandering to racial fears, but we can't deny the economics either. For some it was solely they hated Clinton, others hated Trump but...party loyalty. There were strategic errors made. We all know race was an issue, but to just say "RACE!" as a blanket statement will also miss the target. Ultimately, it may be simplest to just say: She was not a good candidate, and the Dems have just fallen behind the times. But I mean, no one thinks that Joe Biden for example wouldn't have won. What if we get Booker, who fails to inspire the white working class? Personally I still think short run success is entirely economic dependent. That recession coming and response will be critical. And I think Rogerthat made this point, we have always needed inspiring politicians. Obama, Clinton, Reagan. Bush at least had a down home good ol southern charm to him but no surprise people didn't really turnout much for him or Kerry.....(who was basically a breathing corpse), or Gore. Papa Bush for the matter. We just can't handle a Merkel, a boring European style leader. Heck even in the older days where it seems people were more mild and reasonable, people who could see chose JFK over Nixon, while those who listened chose Nixon.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:34 | ||
@SteveG. As one of the ilks I think you've misunderstood something. If I may suggest: go back five pages or so and find out what's been said, and by whom
By the way: who is that ponce with the sunglasses? Probably someone famous, but he looks like a reject from the Love Beach cover Edited by npjnpj - February 04 2017 at 09:44 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:49 | ||
People are complex is all I'll say. There is no catch all that is guaranteed to capture them. People also can be molded over time. Or have certain things drummed up. For hundreds of millions of people that live in a massive space with vast geography, economics and cultures, it just isn't that easy. A liberal, black man that had more of an affluent feel to him (remember in 08 it was Clinton who had the working class) won the white working class in numbers that exceeded all the white guys, even Bill. When conditions were bad enough...he even managed to sneak in diehard Republican Indiana...Missouri and Montana were quite close. It was a beautiful and mind bending time. Like I said, people are complex.
I alternate between the worst case and being more reasonable (granted that may be keeping myself out of depression!) the scenario you mention is not unrealistic....we can't just wave off that concern. If we all as Americans need to learn a lesson from 2016 it's to not wave off things as "ehhh that's not happening" anymore. He is indeed trying to create his own media, and rebuild the entire government around him. Not the traditional filling it with his people but literally crafting it around him and recent actions imply him and Bannon are trying to make all the decisions, leaving everyone else in the dark. This is a scary time for sure. The GOP will not stop it. Some have gotten mad at me for this, pointing to a few speckles here and there of token opposition but in reality, they have not done one thing. They are shell shocked, quietly exited to have a blank slate to push their agenda and many are probably in general agreement with him. Defunding sanctuary cities has been a Tea Party/Freedom Caucus goal already. The latter has hyped up tougher immigration reform. They wanted to build a wall 10 years ago. And we all know what Bush did in terms of civil liberties and creation of a minor police state, tough policing...The truth that few will ever admit: Trump is closer to the mainstream of their party than they want to accept
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:51 | ||
I stated my position. Race is not the sole issue as that should be a given. But this lack of understanding of the Trump base is. As I've said, it's your choice to have have Trump again in 2020. Few of you saw him winning the first time around and I don't see that changing in 4 yrs.
Edited by SteveG - February 04 2017 at 09:52 |
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:52 | ||
Ah, now things are beginning to make sense: I was wondering if these immigration and Mexican wall things were a smoke screen for something, and now it's apparent: Trump is lifting bank regulation legislation. This is HUGE!
And it looks as if the smoke screen has worked, hardly anyone is reporting on it, and if so, it's become a tiny sideline now. I expect that the immigration ban will be lifted soon, seeing that the real work is done. |
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:55 | ||
@SteveG. Aw, that's so mean! What have I ever done to you?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 09:55 | ||
Yes, keep looking for something vague instead of the obvious.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:00 | ||
first of all I have no idea who my "ilk" are supposed to be. second you are in my opinion confusing two things. Trump's claim had nothing to do with the color of Obama's skin. his claim was that Obama was not a natural American citizen meaning he was not born in the USA (being born in the USA is a prerequisite to becoming president). actually Obama was born in the state of Hawaii 2 years after Hawaii became the 50th state of the USA while Trump wrongly assumed he was born before Hawaii joined the USA. that was what the claim was about |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:03 | ||
Now you're trying to confuse him with science.
@ SteveG: so, out of interest: what about Trump's claims that Obama is a closet muslem and that he founded ISIS? I still find those hard to believe, but I'm certain you can enlighten me here. Edited by npjnpj - February 04 2017 at 10:09 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:11 | ||
@Baldjean:Jean, if you do not see a link between Obama's skin color and an unpresidented attack on his right to hold American office, then I'm afraid that you are of the ilk of which I'm refering. Your own class of liberal dems that still think everything is the way it was polictically proir to Obama having been voted in as President.
I apologize for my harsh tone but I'm quite sick of this demagogue, and of people reacting to him and his base as if they had a purely forthright political agenda.
Edited by SteveG - February 04 2017 at 10:15 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:11 | ||
Yes, Trump read a great political treatise, a truly beautiful treatise, called Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Trump as leader is a grand distraction from what's really going on. We will see just how strongly he pushes his walls and bans, but absolutely it all keeps us talking and yelling at each other while he sells us out both to big business and Russia! Jean that's not accurate. He did not come up with that claim. It began right after Obama was elected, well before Trump championed it, and they really DID say he wasn't born in the US. There was no confusion about when Hawaii became a state, they claimed Obama was born in Kenya. If ANYONE was confused it was that they didn't realize Obama was a jr so when they heard "Barack Obama was born in Kenya" they didn't know that meant his Father. Though in reality, it was a made up, purely political attack and I think it's obvious there's a strong racial element. Because along with all that, there's the implication Obama is a Muslim. |
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:18 | ||
@JJLetho: I think you're quite right with that Hitchhiker's
Guide comparison, and on another level too: |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:21 | ||
The Muslim thing has been going around since before he was even elected. Because of his name, his skin, and his upbringing which involved Indonesia, people thought he was a Muslim. I remember, pre election, seeing stories that Obama attended a Madrasa, I saw that on Fox News... As for ISIS, that was just usual Trump sh*t. He makes up stuff. He did say Obama created Isis, and btw "Crooked Hillary was a co-founder" He was taking the claim that Isis grew in the vacuum left in the region by Obama/Clinton actions and dumbed it down to 4th grade level "OBAMA CREATED ISIS!" The sick thing is, when someone tried to say "Oh you mean he created the void that allowed Isis to grow" Trump said no, he means Obama literally founded Isis. So to answer your question, Trump was taking an actual theory and dumbing it down and sticking to his guns, he never clarified or added nuance. It's his style. BTW a logic that I never understood because most pushers of it never once mention Iraq. This vacuum just happened out of nowhere, apparently! To be fair totally fair, Trump has also blamed Bush for the mess (but far less so). I forget the speech but I once saw him put Obama, Clinton and Bunch all together as for why we have Isis. f**ked up part is this isn't 100% wrong AND displays some more criticism of Bush than any other Republican will dare do. Edited by JJLehto - February 04 2017 at 10:28 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:24 | ||
I sometimes forget that I'm conversing with people half a world away and are not necessarily American citizens. I'm American and split my time between the US and the UK for business reasons, mainly.
I post here in order to shake up the status quo as I feel that was Trump's ticket to success. I don't mean to be offensive but as I've said, I'm sick of this demagogue and really feel that past political practices will not work for 2020. I don't know what it will entail, but something radically different will be needed to oust this lout. Of that I'm sure.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:25 | ||
first of all I am not a liberal democrat period. you should not jump to assumptions. second I don't believe at all that things are as they were before Trump became president. had you read my posts this should have been obvious to you. why else would I speak of a new kind of coup d'état? third: in a discussion it NEVER pays to use arguments that can easily be falsified. any Trump supporter would have held your claim of why Trump questioned Obama's right to become president against you and denounced you as a fanatic that sees racial conspiracy everywhere. mark that this is not my opinion; I am simply pointing out how what you said would be turned against you by a Trump supporter |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 31 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1184 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:27 | ||
Might be worth your time to start reading about why conservatives are vulnerable to this sort of manipulation. I don't really care to argue whether Trump himself is a racist (he's said a lot of rather offensive things in the past, and since he never laughs, it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt), but it is certainly not necessarily applicable to the population at large. The real issue is the cult of personality underlying it all. The Republican party hasn't just been goaded until they froth at the mouth; they have been conditioned to believe in not ideas but people. Trump supporters don't talk about how they are going to implement Social Security reform; they don't even have any reforms on offer. Instead, they talk about how Trump is going to fix things, writ large, and how liberals -- often pronounced as a portmanteau with insults, such as libtard or liberast -- are the root of all evil and want enact some straw man dastardly motive. You can chip away at ideas, like racism. Ideas have some fundamental basis in logical or moral reasoning. You can't chip away at a personality. That is what makes Trumpism truly dangerous. |
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Hail Eris!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: February 04 2017 at 10:30 | ||
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