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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18061 |
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Actually the "black lists" had started in the 50's and early 60's and is well documented in film and history in America. The radio side of it, was almost the end of it, but in effect was a judgemental way to keep black music off the radio and tv, by the studios. This is fairly well documented.
By the 70's and then, Michael Jackson, a lot of this was invisible, with the one excpetion, corporate take over! Now the only list is ... THE MONEY LIST ... and this is highly visible today and obvious.
I kinda do not think that it was intentional in keeping the black music off the air, as much as it was the studios and conglomerates simply protecting their investments and making sure that everyone knew that they were out there for you to buy. You knew you cvould buy Elvis and Dean and Darin, but you never heard of Johnson.
Check out the Tom Dowd DVD ... it is a fairly good primer of American Music History in the 50's. You will be totally surprised!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18061 |
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I would rather listen to Stevie Ray Vaughn! He could fly a lot better and take a piece of music further than Clapton. And I got to see him in a duet with Robert Cray that lasted 20 minutes, and not separate, but together the whole time, and it was supreme, and will never appear on record or cd! That's how good it was, to the point where it can only be "experienced"! Are you "experienced"? Which is its true meaning, by the way!
Other than that, Ax Gernrich and a couple of other guitarists that appeared with Guru Guru, and then John Weinzierl from Amon Duul 2 in the early days, ending with "Apocaliptyc Bore", the last worth while "jam" on his guitar! Folks that were not afraid to improvise and experiment, and Ax even created the washing machine sound on his guitar, that made a couple of the early things stand out like the LSD March and other things. But we "rockers" don't get "noise" too good, do we? Edited by moshkito - October 22 2013 at 09:55 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The.Crimson.King ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
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I can see your point. I've never heard all of the Derek/Blind Faith albums so can't really comment there...the radio over-saturation of Layla kept me from having any interest in checking them out. For me, Clapton's high point was Cream. EC's blues playing mixed with Jack Bruce's lead bass and quirky songwriting style mixed with Felix's psych lyrics was an unbeatable combo for me. When I'm referring to EC's "mediocre watered down rock" I'm really pointing at his solo stuff which seemed so uninspired yet garnered him tremendous airplay and fame. I think he's one of those guitarists who functions much better in a band (or playing the "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" session) than as a solo artist.
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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In the early 80's, Michael Jackson made a huge impact in the commercial media. If a new band with a new and original style had the opportunity to be signed to a major label, they were presented with a choice of either sounding like Michael Jackson or getting off the wagon. Michael Jackson records made millions and so the record executives would pressure the promoters to pressure the radio stations to play mostly that format. Then all the radio stations WOULD in fact play that format , dismissing new bands who may have differed from that style .or even ..just enough to take away from it.
On another note, record companies were making 9 dollars of an album sale , while the artist made a dollar. All your promotion/funding was taken off the royalties anyway and your future depended on your audience regarding if you would be dropped from the label after a 2 year record deal or if you would be in fact signed again. Record companies made these barriers that couldn't be broken by the musician. Freedom of expression in Pop music and mainstream Rock music no longer existed. Ann and Nancy Wilson were pressured to dress up like models with 80's teased hair styles , wrote more commercially viable songs fitting to the 80's genre, and lost their true "down to earth" presentation as the Heart band until the 90's when they decided their investments in the business should revolve around being an honest Rock band again.
When the industry followed the racist attitude in the 50's, , Fats Domino, Little Richard and a long list of Rock n' Roll performers were replaced by Fabian, Ricky Nelson and other pretty boys who disgracefully stoled the original rock n' rollers music. Chuck Berry went for the Sinatra crowd and figured if he could play music that was toned down a bit , he might hopefully appeal to the high white society or at least of all...their kids...but!..he was still hassled over taxes and black-balled from venues. So..you see?..even though he wanted to conform to their moronic ideas, they still found yet another way to make him vanish for a while. That's why people like Keith Richards, Mick Jagger, and Brian Jones invested in Chuck Berry and Muddy Waters, supporting them after the Rolling Stones hit the "big time".
Brian Jones was angered and frustrated over the realization that Motown was not popular in England in 65'. He often exposed the dirt in the music business and rubbed other members of the Stones the wrong way...because he felt that honest talent was the key to an audience loving an artist and that the color of someone's skin should have never entered into the subject whatsoever. The Stones were huge, but Brian Jones was outspoken like John Lennon and willing to cut off his nose to spite his own face just to make a worthy point. That pretty much explains why he didn't like the state of Texas when he visited there in 65'.
Eric Clapton was not responsible for the hype...although he towed the line after Layla....many of the great guitarists from his generation like Peter Green, Mike Bloomfield, and so on were purposely wiped out due to a business move to represent the 60's in a kind of false image. Not everybody was talking about Eric Clapton day and night in the 60's while dismissing all the other outstanding players. People seem to have the impression it was all about Clapton and it's simply not true. That's why depending upon what has been written in publication over certain decades, historically and in the present, will not give you a clear and true representation of the 60's music. Mike Bloomfield was famous for his playing in the popular cities of the U.S. and he played all the same venues that Cream played. So...the industry made a mistake by choosing a list to give the next generation the impression that a band like Canned Heat had 2 hits and that the rest of their material was lack-luster when compared to someone like Jimi Hendri or Janis Joplin...and! they did the same God awful thing to Jefferson Airplane. By early 70's...albums like Bark and Long John Silver produced a kind of Space Rock with violin and a bit progressive like Crown of Creation...however, it was too late by then to be taken seriously when the radio insisted on programming everyone to remember "White Rabbit" instead. Tell me why?
![]() Edited by TODDLER - October 22 2013 at 12:07 |
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The.Crimson.King ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
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I've read the Stones were horrified on their 1st tour of the American south when they encountered segregation. They couldn't understand why their musical heroes were being treated so poorly. Unfortunately for Brian Jones, though he may have been the outspoken Stone in the early days, his descent into drug problems made anything he would have had to say marginalized and ignored. As usual, people ignore the message if they don't like the messenger. Besides, by that time Mick & Keith had grown tight and wouldn't let anything (or anyone) stand in their way from achieving the success they wanted. They weren't dubbed "The Glitter Twins" for nothing
![]() Edited by The.Crimson.King - October 22 2013 at 12:48 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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What?
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The.Crimson.King ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
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Oops...that's The Glimmer Twins
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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The.Crimson.King ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
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Ya, Brian was the most gifted musician the Stones had and his ability to play anything is well documented. I think his desire to experiment with new instruments and master them enough to use on a recording was a key factor in the Stones early success and is what makes their early recordings so enjoyable. Sitar on Paint it Black, recorder on Ruby Tuesday, dulcimer & harpsichord on Lady Jane, marimba on Under My Thumb...it was Brian's touch that made those songs so special...they were already good songs, but the instrumental touches he added made them exceptional. My understanding is that his death was especially tragic because he was just starting to come out of his drug problems and was excited to be out from under Jagger/Richards control just before he died. Of course, there are several accounts that seriously question the circumstances of his death and who was to gain from his demise, but it's a pretty good chance that no one will ever completely know the truth
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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I remember reading somewhere about a dispute between Brian Jones and Andrew Oldman. If memory serves..it had to do with Oldman asking the band to write hits and Jones wanting a Blues unit. I also read that Brian Jones disliked the idea of playing Psychedelic/Arty Rock instead of Blues. If that's true, then he must have conditioned himself to play a style of music he was not personally fond of and that's irony. How could he have recorded all those beautiful parts to songs like Ruby Tuesday and Paint it Black..while on the inside he was interested in something else? Or...is this even true..as I've heard about this years ago from Rolling Stones fanatics.
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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Pipes of Pan was a strange form of improvisation...if you or anyone else even likes it? I wonder what inspired him to visit Morroco?
Edited by TODDLER - October 22 2013 at 17:51 |
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The.Crimson.King ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
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Brian started out as a total blues purist, even adopting the stage name Elmore in honor of his blues guitar hero Elmore James. I've also read that Jones absolutely hated the "Satanic Majesties" album and wanted to get back to playing the blues. Further, he was genuinely excited about the material coming out of the "Beggars Banquet" sessions...though if you've ever seen the crazy French documentary "Sympathy for the Devil" (aka "One Plus One") by Jean-Luc Goddard, the studio footage of Brian is embarrassing. He's so far gone, he can't even just strum the backing chords to Sympathy. I've read a sympathetic account of Brian at the time and it claims that he was emotionally distraught/destroyed about losing Anita Pallenberg to Keith and control of the Stones - which was actually HIS band in the beginning - to Mick & Keith. Marianne Faithful even confided to a friend when Brian died that "Mick & Keith have finally broke him" (paraphrasing there). Anyway, he just buried his head in drugs and became a shell of his former self. I think his excitement about the Morocco musicians that lead to the "Pipes of Jajouka" album was a sign he was emerging from the haze and misery the Stones had become for him. He also had left London and the drug scene to live at Cotchford Farm in East Sussex (which was where AA Milne had written "Winnie the Pooh") and according to fellow blues purist Alexis Korner (who visited him shortly before his death) he was happy and looking forward to future musical endeavors. Speaking of which, he had also contacted Korner, John Lennon, Mitch Mitchell and others about possible musical collaborations...imagine what that could have produced? Unfortunately, we'll never know.
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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Very sad. I suppose Mick and Keith were young and lacked in the area of sensitivity. A poor excuse though for those who desire fame over friendship. But again...maybe Jones wasn't crying out for help? Ambition is a sign of insanity according to Erik Fromm. Money and fame becoming a more important role than family and friends. I believe Jagger and Richards developed guilt over the way they treated Brian Jones, as they grew older and had more time to think about it. Certain aspects of the music business are exactly like other walks of life, but certain tragic events which are not will always remain as realities only discovered and experienced within the music business. It's that characteristic of life/environment within the music business that confuses people who do not live that life and they become misinformed or skeptical about it, not understanding how certain things which actually take place could even be possible
. I always wondered if Brian Jones had enough awareness to swim to the surface of the pool , but his physical state would not allow it....or did he simply allow himself to drown? It's like being in a sling. You personally induced yourself before entering the pool and after your physical state was weakened, you changed your mind....shame on you..or shame on him. Alexis Corner claimed Brian Jones was happy, but in the film "Ordinary People"...there is a scene where a young girl is released from the mental hospital and meets up with her old friend at a cafe. Her character reveals signs of a person who is happy and has surpassed the level of depression. Her smile and her attitude about life surprises her male friend giving him the impression she has moved on...until a few days later when he phones her up and her parents inform him that she has taken her own life. He acts confused and misunderstands the intentions not realizing the cross pattern of a duel personality. One personality takes on the role of a happy/content human being ..while underneath is this tormented individual who refuses to reveal anything to anyone except happiness. Those are the people who don't want to be helped in these cases and the strength of the more positive personality on the surface is well acted and played out like a safeguard that can not be penetrated because there is nothing indicated to be otherwise. Edited by TODDLER - October 23 2013 at 07:15 |
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progbethyname ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7865 |
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^^ interesting...very interesting. Looks like the STONES were a pretty important band to you both.
I applaud this because better you like the stones than DISCO! Yeash! Lol |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18061 |
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Barracuda!
I still do not believe, that improvisation died in America because the players and musicians just weren't good. I actually think that they simply never thought of it all as "music", as Europe seems to have done, specially with a history that is more than 1,000 years in the making. In America, the early conquistadores, spent their whole time killing all the music and art they found because it was naked and ugly and what not, and then, us, 200 years later, expecting to find some semblance of musical "source" and "inner representation", is not gonna happen. It became a slight copy of the European stuff that was brought in.
Black music, however much survived from the days of slavery and such, since it seems that is the only connection one can find, has become the only real tradition, but even that had a lot of improvisation and freedom, that was not tied to a song ... until radio and tv and film became famous, and we learned to hum the jingles in various places. We all knew the Betty Boop jingle. We all knew the Carmen Miranda jingle, and such, but never realized what it was, but it was not a representative of what was out in the streets at ALL!
There is a bit in history of theater that is nuts here, and the US Senate was involved. There was a program that was created to make sure that theater and film people could work. And it went ok for a while until Everett Dirksen got upset because there were people paying for the shows at the door, and their program had been designed to get food and utilities for people, not to be used for entertainment. The program died the next day. On the back side of this, was a portion of it that was going to be used for musicians, and none of them, ever got anything, and it was one of the reasons why so many musicians left America and went to Europe in the 20's, 30's and then later.
I always thought that the improvisations at the Fillmore (for lack of better examples) would have been considered more important, if this was Europe, than San Francisco, or America. Here, things are tough to break through in terms of difference. You have to sound like everyone else. Or you have to do it like Djam Karet, 25 years, still doing well, and strong, but we still talk about Yes and Genesis, and about the best keyboard player, or something that is less musically inclined discussion, than it is favorite/fan/topofthepops concern.
The real issue, is that, even today, everyone thinks, that the bands were too stoned and ripped to create music, and even the folks around the Grateful Dead are not capable, or willing to discuss it. And then you get someone like Roger Waters going around saying that it was crap and meaningless, and all of a sudden, it is all meaningless.
There is nothing in the human experience that is meaningless. The moment that happens, you are dead! And this lack of respect for life, is scary, and pathetic in my book. It didn't matter that they were stoned.
In the film "The Trip", about Ken Kesey (must see movie, btw!!!!), there is a line towards the end, about drugs, and I still think that it was the right thing to say and understand. But we are afraid to see it and say it! At its very core is, experience. Edited by moshkito - October 23 2013 at 08:18 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18061 |
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I don't think that it was "improvisation" that got them to Morocco. It was good dope. There is no secret in that.
The music, was incidental, and all of a sudden, made rock/radio stuff sound and feel quite meaningless, compared to what they were seeing.
Morocco, were not the only ones. Both the National Theater and Royal Shakespeare Company were also fooling around with native groups, and you can even find Eberhard Schoenner doing his first album with Bali folks. It was just all so "different" from our "thinking" ways. And all of a sudden, you are heaing music that has no "thinking" but it's still very musical, which to a western mind, does not make sense. We are way too logical to accept something else at times. We think everything has to be didactic in the way we designed it! And refute it when it isn't that way, though sometimes we let it pass as "art".
It was no different, than the "Missa Luba", that also had folks going ... what the heck is this?
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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Interesting post. You mentioned Eberhard Schoenner and his first album which I never heard. Rudiger Lorenz, Eberhard Shoenner, and Jorge Reyes were icons of mine. I just went bonkers collecting their works, but I never heard of Shoenner's first album. I see the connection you are making with history.
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The.Crimson.King ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
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Speaking as someone who nearly drowned at the age of 13, you don't "allow" yourself to drown...it's just pure adrenaline panic and wild thrashing. I suppose there are other drowning situations where you're physically trapped below deck on a sinking ship or the like. In those cases, there must certainly be a moment when you decide all is lost and holding your breath is hopeless and you "decide" to swallow the water and end it all. Of course, if Brian was out of his head on some substance and entered the pool foolishly, it could be as you said and he just lost awareness...either way, drowning is a miserable way to go. and not my first choice for a suicidal impulse. I agree with your take on Alexis' read of Brian finally being happy. No one really knows what's in the head of another and their behaviour is often deceiving - especially if they're trying to put on a brave face after being thrown out of the world famous band they actually founded. The thing though that leads me to believe his happiness was genuine, was the plans he was making for future musical activities with Lennon/Mitchell/Alexis etc. If all is lost, you usually aren't looking forward to positive future activities but are drowning in your misery - there's that drowning thing again
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TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
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Very good point! I agree ..that is interesting isn't it? I always thought Brian Jones could have recorded a instrumental album overdubbing all the instruments he played like Dulcimer, sitar, piano, organ, etc...and produced a fine album to the level of a Mike Oldfield. If you listen to his contributions, dismissing the vocals and instruments played by the other band members, you can distinguish that side to him. He actually wasn't too distant from producing a work of musical art of that level. He had too many issues..otherwise he could have recorded a instrumental album for Apple Records during the time when The Beatles were signing Avant-Garde and Jazz artists to the label. I'm sure John Lennon would have allowed it, but Brian Jones was too far gone by then. Edited by TODDLER - October 23 2013 at 11:11 |
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progbethyname ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7865 |
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Well, I almost drowned as well around when I was 9 years-old...pretty scary stuff and this was definitely not by choice. Thinking about the concept though 'when all is lost' I can't help but think about this song. It makes perfect sense. Warning ![]() ![]() http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPVC2UJRAbc&feature=youtube_gdata_player |
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