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moshkito View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2013 at 13:49
Hi,
 
Nice evaluation of the individual improvisations, and they are way better than mine.
 
I was thinking that the only ones missing would be the electronic very early stuff, more prevalent in Europe, and then the stuff that led to Beaver and Krause, Paul Moog and all that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2013 at 17:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
Nice evaluation of the individual improvisations, and they are way better than mine.
 
I was thinking that the only ones missing would be the electronic very early stuff, more prevalent in Europe, and then the stuff that led to Beaver and Krause, Paul Moog and all that.
That's an interesting topic. I hope to see that covered one day on P.A. It has such a close relationship with Progressive Rock. It's very educational and the history of electronic music development is complex and fascinating.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2013 at 17:26
in the words of the Grateful Dead...  "Too much of everything is just enough"  

You can never engage in "too much" improv for my tastes.


Edited by Larree - October 07 2013 at 17:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2013 at 18:10
You boys talking about King Crimson's improv?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 09:06
Originally posted by The Sloth The Sloth wrote:

You boys talking about King Crimson's improv?
Frippzoid improv on guitar? In the 70's , fans of 20th century Avant-Garde were not necessarily pleased with the improvisation of King Crimson. Never mind that...I have always observed everyone's reaction whether it be pompously provoked by a band's style or overwhelmingly positive. It interested me to know people's opinions on music because I grew up in a Classical oriented musical family as a child.
 
The style of King Crimson's improvisation dating from 73' to 74'  attracted a larger crowd of people in comparison to line ups of K.C. that existed before. Bruford was extermely independent as a drummer. His independence in YES was impeccable and by the time he was lured into Crimson by Fripp, he was ready and able to follow any Frippzoid progression or Tri-tone, Devil's interval , bizzare sounding flesh eating unconscious improvisation thrown his way. Although their minds were sometimes conscientiously on guard because from a personal point of view , I believe Fripp laid out certain rules to follow. I don't believe their improvisation was a hundred percent spontaneous. Although it DID come across that way and that's where the evidence of sound within it can be confusing when you attempt to make a analysis of it. The history of musicians reveals certain formulas that cannot be observed accurately, like secret knowledge written on paper with lemon juice and only revealed when held up to a burning candle. The style and uniqueness of a band can cause a person to investigate/research .
 
One simple observation of my own is that Robert Fripp would often write a piece that was reminiscent of a piece he had written before. That is common in music because common knowledge tells us that many composers almost rely upon that process/concept as a guiding tool for their own personal musical expansion. This doesn't always pertain to redundancy in music. It depends on the ability of the composer to overshadow the presence of redundancy to the listener. Larks' Tongues In Aspic parts I and II, Fracture, and Red are all reminiscent of each other. All 3 pieces contain simulation in minute details because the structure differs. In otherwords, all 3 pieces are based off the same kind of ideas.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 13:12
This one goes out to Dean. Phish's "You Enjoy Myself." Excellent composition and improvisation. 
 
 
 
Cut to the improv:
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 09:07
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by The Sloth The Sloth wrote:

You boys talking about King Crimson's improv?


Frippzoid improv on guitar? In the 70's , fans of 20th century Avant-Garde were not necessarily pleased with the improvisation of King Crimson. Never mind that...I have always observed everyone's reaction whether it be pompously provoked by a band's style or overwhelmingly positive. It interested me to know people's opinions on music because I grew up in a Classical oriented musical family as a child.

 

The style of King Crimson's improvisation dating from 73' to 74'  attracted a larger crowd of people in comparison to line ups of K.C. that existed before. Bruford was extermely independent as a drummer. His independence in YES was impeccable and by the time he was lured into Crimson by Fripp, he was ready and able to follow any Frippzoid progression or Tri-tone, Devil's interval , bizzare sounding flesh eating unconscious improvisation thrown his way. Although their minds were sometimes conscientiously on guard because from a personal point of view , I believe Fripp laid out certain rules to follow. I don't believe their improvisation was a hundred percent spontaneous. Although it DID come across that way and that's where the evidence of sound within it can be confusing when you attempt to make a analysis of it. The history of musicians reveals certain formulas that cannot be observed accurately, like secret knowledge written on paper with lemon juice and only revealed when held up to a burning candle. The style and uniqueness of a band can cause a person to investigate/research .

 

One simple observation of my own is that Robert Fripp would often write a piece that was reminiscent of a piece he had written before. That is common in music because common knowledge tells us that many composers almost rely upon that process/concept as a guiding tool for their own personal musical expansion. This doesn't always pertain to redundancy in music. It depends on the ability of the composer to overshadow the presence of redundancy to the listener. Larks' Tongues In Aspic parts I and II, Fracture, and Red are all reminiscent of each other. All 3 pieces contain simulation in minute details because the structure differs. In otherwords, all 3 pieces are based off the same kind of ideas.


'FLESH EATING UNCONSCIOUS IMPROVISATION' I think I rather like this description.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 15:51
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

...
Frippzoid improv on guitar? In the 70's , fans of 20th century Avant-Garde were not necessarily pleased with the improvisation of King Crimson. Never mind that...I have always observed everyone's reaction whether it be pompously provoked by a band's style or overwhelmingly positive. It interested me to know people's opinions on music because I grew up in a Classical oriented musical family as a child.
 ...
 
 
I'm reading up on some Gurdgieff, and trying to find the link to Peter Brook, and also to Robert Fripp. I have already seen, and made the connection in Peter's work, and it is fairly different and clever, but it gets "into it", and some of it can be found in his books, The Empty Space and the other one called The Open Door. It might be a stretch to think that, but there are some acting suggestions he makes that are very similar to some of the exercises discussed later in Gurdgieff and Ouspensky's writings. Can this be done with music? Probably not as easy, but the "attitude" would be one thing that could easily be used in music!
 
If I have a comment with Robert, it would be that there are two of them.
 
One did improv's with Eno (and others), and it didn't matter where these went.
 
The other did improv's to help improve a song or the material, that became known as "King Crimson", and there are enough stories documenting the rehearsing process, that some folks thought was too much, that ended up becoming the ITCOTCK. For as far apart as the album is in styles, it is remarcably smooth and clear, if not clean, and this helps us appreciate it all the more. But we have never given a whiff, or whisper about, how does something that far apart, fall into an album, that is soooooo unlike 99.9% of popular and rock music out there?
 
That is not really answered yet! It might never be!
 
(Dang. Thx Dean. That's another post without the ...)


Edited by moshkito - October 12 2013 at 15:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 16:48

An example of something that interferes with "improvisation" and a slight essay on the rest. Film 201 stuff, btw.

This is a "visual exercise" that helps you understand how some of the things you are used to, and know, tend to hurt the improvisation moments, and as Dean suggested previously, this would be the spot where you end up using as much as you know or are capable of bringing up from your memory.

The only concern here, is when you are paying attention to your "memory", can you properly pay attention to what the other members of the group are doing? And this is the only really big "secret" there is in any improvisation, and the acting exercise that I have mentioned before shows this in the change between the 1st and 2nd, and then the 2nd and the 3rd hours of the exercise.

Notice that I don't like to use the word "process", since any "improvisation" is not necessarily about a process, although you can use something or other to begin it with.

Here is the bit that you have seen in film over and over again:

You see two people sitting and having dinner. They are sitting across each other. The camera sees his face, then switches point of view to her face, and then to a side shot showing them both, and so forth. Think about this. In a novel, this is not how it happens. And this is the type of "conditioning" that you can find in film, theater and any of the arts, that prevent one from finding new ways to communicate. Now, you end up seeing something like that French director and his films are 100% first person, and you will walk out of the films before they go halfway, mostly because they are violent, but also, they are very difficult to adjust your sights to see what is the film doing, and how is it that it is interfering with your perception. Generally, in music, everyone is "first person", or everyone is "third person", or as I like to say, playing together really well! You rarely mix the various point of views, with the exception of the "solo" that may or may not be necessarily a part of the song, or music, itself. Same with the film. Wait a minute, how can I know for sure her feelings, his feelings and my feelings? The only story I have ever read where the point of view is by different folks in the same story, is Lawrence Durrell, and how many folks here know him? This is more difficult in music, as it can be considered invisible, and the other member of the band could have written that solo, and not be the one playing it!

1. That conditioning, always brings you to what you know and understand first. And you respond likewise. We could say that is human nature. No question there.

2. That conditioning, locks you into thinking that is the way that things should be as time goes by. And this tends to be the first thing that shows up in an improvisation at first, and then disappears, with a "quiet" period that would suggest the person is trying to figure out what they could, or should do.

3. The conditioning, locks the possibilities for seeing things differently, and this is the major thrust of a lot of Jean-Luc Godard films, the biggest clown with a camera in his hand, but one thing he does a lot, is make sure he makes fun of that conditioning.

Now, let's take this to music.

1. As you play, you are using chords, notes and musical details that you know and have learned.

2. As is the case with some jazz musicians, the relationship and transitions between these chords and moments are what the music is about. It is a really nice area to play with, although this is not really done in rock music, that has been stuck on a design that limits a lot of its abilities. The same thing MAY happen in rock music, but it tends to always come back to a bridge, or theme, whereas most jazz, might not necessarily do that, except in popular styles of "jazz", usually known as "easy listening" in the old days!

3. Throw in the proverbial kitchen sink and chair into the improvisation, to force adjustments and details that can only be done as a result of what happened instead of the musician locking up, and then falling back on things that he/she knows that they have used earlier in the exercise. Sometimes that is not the favored thing to do, as the mood, and atmosphere of the exercise, might not want "regimented" material as much as attention to the detail of the moment, should have been given, and addressed likewise. Ex: It is a loving scene, and you have to play it melodically, not clinically (so to speak!).

Now, AFTER the fact:

The biggest advantage these days, is that you can record these and it's cheap. So, in the case of King Crimson's first album, it would be easy to say, let's keep this section and then smooth it to this section. That is what theater, tends to do with a "director" that most rock/pop music does not have, or use. However, attention should be given here to musicians that are far more able to see music history and its details, and find a spot or two that can be smoothed out and then played, and not come off as "jagged" and "impersonal" as some improvised music can.

Now, going back to the other "styles" of improvisation, this is something that we can add to those words, and I'm going to see if we can put together all of them into a sensible form, for folks here, not to be a "guide", but as a serious study of the forms that are so prevalent in the study of any art.



Edited by moshkito - October 19 2013 at 16:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 19:04
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

An example of something that interferes with "improvisation" and a slight essay on the rest. Film 201 stuff, btw.

This is a "visual exercise" that helps you understand how some of the things you are used to, and know, tend to hurt the improvisation moments, and as Dean suggested previously, this would be the spot where you end up using as much as you know or are capable of bringing up from your memory.

The only concern here, is when you are paying attention to your "memory", can you properly pay attention to what the other members of the group are doing? And this is the only really big "secret" there is in anyimprovisation, and the acting exercise that I have mentioned before shows this in the change between the 1st and 2nd, and then the 2nd and the 3rd hours of the exercise.

Notice that I don't like to use the word "process", since any "improvisation" is not necessarily about a process, although you can use something or other to begin it with.

Here is the bit that you have seen in film over and over again:

You see two people sitting and having dinner. They are sitting across each other. The camera sees his face, then switches point of view to her face, and then to a side shot showing them both, and so forth. Think about this. In a novel, this is not how it happens. And this is the type of "conditioning" that you can find in film, theater and any of the arts, that prevent one from finding new ways to communicate. Now, you end up seeing something like that French director and his films are 100% first person, and you will walk out of the films before they go halfway, mostly because they are violent, but also, they are very difficult to adjust your sights to see what is the film doing, and how is it that it is interfering with your perception. Generally, in music, everyone is "first person", or everyone is "third person", or as I like to say, playing together really well! You rarely mix the various point of views, with the exception of the "solo" that may or may not be necessarily a part of the song, or music, itself. Same with the film. Wait a minute, how can I know for sure her feelings, his feelings and my feelings? The only story I have ever read where the point of view is by different folks in the same story, is Lawrence Durrell, and how many folks here know him? This is more difficult in music, as it can be considered invisible, and the other member of the band could have written that solo, and not be the one playing it!

1. That conditioning, always brings you to what you know and understand first. And you respond likewise. We could say that is human nature. No question there.

2. That conditioning, locks you into thinking that is the way that things should be as time goes by. And this tends to be the first thing that shows up in an improvisation at first, and then disappears, with a "quiet" period that would suggest the person is trying to figure out what they could, or should do.

3. The conditioning, locks the possibilities for seeing things differently, and this is the major thrust of a lot of Jean-Luc Godard films, the biggest clown with a camera in his hand, but one thing he does a lot, is make sure he makes fun of that conditioning.

Now, let's take this to music.

1. As you play, you are using chords, notes and musical details that you know and have learned.

2. As is the case with some jazz musicians, the relationship and transitions between these chords and moments are what the music is about. It is a really nice area to play with, although this is not really done in rock music, that has been stuck on a design that limits a lot of its abilities.

3. Throw in the proverbial kitchen sink and chair into the improvisation, to force adjustments and details that can only be done as a result of what happened instead of the musician locking up, and then falling back on things that he/she knows that they have used earlier in the exercise. Sometimes that is not the favored thing to do, as the mood, and atmosphere of the exercise, might not want "regimented" material as much as attention to the detail of the moment, should have been given, and addressed likewise. Ex: It is a loving scene, and you have to play it melodically, not clinically (so to speak!).

Now, AFTER the fact:

The biggest advantage these days, is that you can record these and it's cheap. So, in the case of King Crimson's first album, it would be easy to say, let's keep this section and then smooth it to this section. That is what theater, tends to do with a "director" that most rock/pop music does not have, or use. However, attention should be given here to musicians that are far more able to see music history and its details, and find a spot or two that can be smoothed out and then played, and not come off as "jagged" and "impersonal" as some improvised music can.

Now, going back to the other "styles" of improvisation, this is something that we can add to those words, and I'm going to see if we can put together all of them into a sensible form, for folks here, not to be a "guide", but as a serious study of the forms that are so prevalent in the study of any art.

Very nice post Moshkito! You know I love film and follow some (not all), history on film directors. This interests me and thanks for posting it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 16:27
Hi,
 
I have to do some listening to some of the jazz stuff again. There is a part of Miles Davis that I like, and then there is the more conventional Miles Davis (earlier?) that leaves me cold, and I am not sure what it is. 
 
The "Blue Note" style of improvisation was almost 100% exclusive to the person's instrument, and their fluidity in it. In many ways, things like Miles Davis, were oddballs, because that instrument has never been the sweetest thing on this earth since toast and jam on it! They did not sound, I want to say "romantic", like the piano can, or the violin can, or "sweet" like the flute can!
 
One of the harsh things, that makes it very difficult to experiment with music, is the "sound" itself. Too many folks are attached to that sound, and it is way too old a thinking process, for it to allow an update, or change. Thus, you can see it in the kids, I wanna be Eric, or Jeff, or Kurt or whomever, but they never really think something like "I like that thing with 6 strings, and I'm gonna make them squeal and cry!", and not give a darn, about who these other folks are.
 
Sometimes, you have to do that, or as it is said, unlearn everything you know so you can find out there is something else to learn, and this is one of the toughest things to teach and learn in a consumerist styled society, if I may state that, where folks only know things they think are the right things, and they are basically afraid of hearing and listening to things that are not in their comfort zone.
 
And in this area of comfort zone, surprisingly enough, film has been more inventive than music. There is no one in the music archives anywhere, that can even come close to the insane assault that you can find in some film makers today, that makes it hard for folks to realize there is more music out there than pop/rock music!  And film critics and historians help bring these out, whereas in the rock areas, the big criticism is always centered around the fact that it is either pop music, or it isn't rock'n'roll!
 
And as such, the ability, and chance, or "progressive" music to make a dent in the history of music and get better known gets jolted, jilted and forgotten, or worse, simply described as a jagged this or that and long cuts, which in the end, tells you that those folks are not even listening to the music at all, other wise you would be talking about all the far out stuff that the music brings out in you, like most arts also do! So rock music can't have a pastoral symphony, but orchestra music can! I'll be damned ... there goes Mike Oldfield! (just one time, Dean!)


Edited by moshkito - October 19 2013 at 16:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 20:01
Improvisation should not be underrestimated as a writing-tool. A lot of really great tunes are the product of musicians improvising and finding interesting things to play, which then can be structured in a more organized manner. It's also always nice with some improvisation as part of a live-show. If the live show sounds exactly like the album, I can just listen to the album right? It shouldn't be to much improvisation on an album though, unless the improvised parts sound so good you just can't part with them :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2013 at 21:11
I like improvisation the most in live performances.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2013 at 11:43
Hi,
 
I'm not sure that one can judge how good an improvisation is, or wasn't, based on it being on the stage. It kinda defeats the purpose of the exercise, and the fun it takes to do it, if the folks are so inclined. I love improvisation and when it gets here, be it Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti, Terje Rypdal, or Jon McLoughlin, or folks that live in that medium and are not afraid of it! Live or memorex, makes no difference for them!
 
But within a performance, for example, it is acceptable that the instruments improvise within a jazz context, though with rock music, it really is not acceptable a whole lot ... as the audiences, feel that they did not get it, or understand what is going on. My thoughts are that this is a part of the conditioning. You came to hear Whole Lotta Love, and you were not interested in the middle part going as far as Blueberry Hill, or all of a sudden, Dream Theater takes off on something that no one recognizes, and the metal audience, will feel alienated!
 
This is the case here, other than the folks that enjoy all the free form stuff, in any way it comes. I find it scary, and bizarre, that we think that King Crimson has improvised material, which is minimal, compared to Robert Fripp's solo albums, where the majority of the stuff IS improvised, and all over the place, just not always, within a rock song context, which tells you that the audience is too conditioned to listening to songs, and not anything else. This hurts the "improvisational" process on the stage a lot.
 
Or, one can look at Klaus Schulze, that might have an idea or two for what he wants to do, but in the end, the only thing he was able to get going was the sequencer on and later off, and then anything that came to his mind and fingers on top of it. No two concerts of his, will ever be the same, because even he doesn't know what comes up when the moment is there! It is easy to say, that he has worked up some things in his mind, but that moment might never arrive! Rock music is deathly afraid of that moment, and so few bands are working it, like Amon Duul 2 did before their start and Guru Guru showed it in their first 3 albums! In America, none of it was ever released and I have always attributed this to the media and record album design. And the Grateful Dead used to be known for their long jams! Go figure, and you can not even find these on the bootlegs! I guess they weren't worth while, or they simply did not have any artistic inkling past just creating a new song? Might as well improvise on the stage, cheaper than the studio and you get paid for it?


Edited by moshkito - October 20 2013 at 11:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2013 at 12:01
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

And the Grateful Dead used to be known for their long jams! Go figure, and you can not even find these on the bootlegs! I guess they weren't worth while, or they simply did not have any artistic inkling past just creating a new song? Might as well improvise on the stage, cheaper than the studio and you get paid for it?

The new Grateful Dead box "Sunshine Daydream" (the entire show recorded 8/27/72) has a couple wonderful extended jams/improvs with "Playing in the Band" coming in at 19:57 and Dark Star at 31:28 Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2013 at 20:09
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
I'm not sure that one can judge how good an improvisation is, or wasn't, based on it being on the stage. It kinda defeats the purpose of the exercise, and the fun it takes to do it, if the folks are so inclined. I love improvisation and when it gets here, be it Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti, Terje Rypdal, or Jon McLoughlin, or folks that live in that medium and are not afraid of it! Live or memorex, makes no difference for them!
 
But within a performance, for example, it is acceptable that the instruments improvise within a jazz context, though with rock music, it really is not acceptable a whole lot ... as the audiences, feel that they did not get it, or understand what is going on. My thoughts are that this is a part of the conditioning. You came to hear Whole Lotta Love, and you were not interested in the middle part going as far as Blueberry Hill, or all of a sudden, Dream Theater takes off on something that no one recognizes, and the metal audience, will feel alienated!

In 1978 audiences responded to improvisation. A musician could be in a R&B band, a Progressive Rock band ..it didn't matter much to anyone. If you played a nice solo..people dancing ..would turn and clap for you. By 1980..that mentality/appreciation was fading. I always traveled the road and this particular observation was to be an extreme change for my life. When a person doesn't recognize a piece it's based on their personal exposure to radio and how (of course), that became limited over the years. Black lists were created by the radio stations because they were suggested by the promoters. In the early 80's after hour radio progammes played Progressive Rock, but by 85' it had faded and the signal for a college station was poor. It was the destruction of art in music.
 
This is the case here, other than the folks that enjoy all the free form stuff, in any way it comes. I find it scary, and bizarre, that we think that King Crimson has improvised material, which is minimal, compared to Robert Fripp's solo albums, where the majority of the stuff IS improvised, and all over the place, just not always, within a rock song context, which tells you that the audience is too conditioned to listening to songs, and not anything else. This hurts the "improvisational" process on the stage a lot.
 
Or, one can look at Klaus Schulze, that might have an idea or two for what he wants to do, but in the end, the only thing he was able to get going was the sequencer on and later off, and then anything that came to his mind and fingers on top of it. No two concerts of his, will ever be the same, because even he doesn't know what comes up when the moment is there! It is easy to say, that he has worked up some things in his mind, but that moment might never arrive! Rock music is deathly afraid of that moment, and so few bands are working it, like Amon Duul 2 did before their start and Guru Guru showed it in their first 3 albums! In America, none of it was ever released and I have always attributed this to the media and record album design. And the Grateful Dead used to be known for their long jams! Go figure, and you can not even find these on the bootlegs! I guess they weren't worth while, or they simply did not have any artistic inkling past just creating a new song? Might as well improvise on the stage, cheaper than the studio and you get paid for it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2013 at 08:41
Originally posted by toddler toddler wrote:

...
In 1978 audiences responded to improvisation. A musician could be in a R&B band, a Progressive Rock band ..it didn't matter much to anyone. If you played a nice solo..people dancing ..would turn and clap for you. By 1980..that mentality/appreciation was fading.
...
 
This is what I mean by "conditioning" that is a result of the top ten and the media, and the same thing happens here, and is the reason why I would like to see the boards "top 100" be strictly about the band, and not the album, so a band would only represent once, not 3 or 4 times, and take the appreciation away from other bands. The side effect, is that many new folks think that 3 or 4 bands are what the genre is about, and then we get upset that the Hall of F__ Shame does not include "progressive", when we don't even have enough appreciation for the music itself, and are doing exactly the same thing they are .... kissing up to the heroes and top ten, to ensure more money! And the Hall, doesn't want competitors, of course!
 
Originally posted by toddler toddler wrote:

...
Black lists were created by the radio stations because they were suggested by the promoters. In the early 80's after hour radio progammes played Progressive Rock, but by 85' it had faded and the signal for a college station was poor. It was the destruction of art in music.
 
Not sure there were "black lists", but if the station that my roomie was on, was any indication, the real issue was the intelligence level and lack of aesthetics in many of the folks in there, who were there to pick up the girls, dope, or anything else, and get the side effect of free albums of music, most of which no one ever gave attention to. This is still the case, and I tend to call it "ignorance", which is a rough word, but in the end, it has to do with your own ability to hear something else, and many folks can not do it.
 
That simple! It forces them to look in the mirror and themselves, and one always sees something they don't like, and immediately go defend their ideals to no end! They couldn't be wrong! Their ideas have to be right!
 
Heck, I'm happiest when I'm wrong! Because that's when the music shines the most!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2013 at 11:18
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by toddler toddler wrote:

...
In 1978 audiences responded to improvisation. A musician could be in a R&B band, a Progressive Rock band ..it didn't matter much to anyone. If you played a nice solo..people dancing ..would turn and clap for you. By 1980..that mentality/appreciation was fading.
...
 
This is what I mean by "conditioning" that is a result of the top ten and the media, and the same thing happens here, and is the reason why I would like to see the boards "top 100" be strictly about the band, and not the album, so a band would only represent once, not 3 or 4 times, and take the appreciation away from other bands. The side effect, is that many new folks think that 3 or 4 bands are what the genre is about, and then we get upset that the Hall of F__ Shame does not include "progressive", when we don't even have enough appreciation for the music itself, and are doing exactly the same thing they are .... kissing up to the heroes and top ten, to ensure more money! And the Hall, doesn't want competitors, of course!
 
Originally posted by toddler toddler wrote:

...
Black lists were created by the radio stations because they were suggested by the promoters. In the early 80's after hour radio progammes played Progressive Rock, but by 85' it had faded and the signal for a college station was poor. It was the destruction of art in music.
 
Not sure there were "black lists", but if the station that my roomie was on, was any indication, the real issue was the intelligence level and lack of aesthetics in many of the folks in there, who were there to pick up the girls, dope, or anything else, and get the side effect of free albums of music, most of which no one ever gave attention to. This is still the case, and I tend to call it "ignorance", which is a rough word, but in the end, it has to do with your own ability to hear something else, and many folks can not do it.
 
That simple! It forces them to look in the mirror and themselves, and one always sees something they don't like, and immediately go defend their ideals to no end! They couldn't be wrong! Their ideas have to be right!
 
Heck, I'm happiest when I'm wrong! Because that's when the music shines the most!
Black lists were mainly designed to take attention away from certain innovative artists of the 60's and early 70's , replacing their popularity with a new list of innovative artists the industry picked out. So...let's say we were having a few glasses of wine..we could pick out all the artists the industry attempted to make less popular and all of the ones they decided to invest in. We could start by saying ...it's Eric Clapton instead of Mike Bloomfield, It's The Doors instead of Canned Heat and you could come up with a pretty convincing list. If you could travel in a time machine back to 67', and ask every hippie on the street corner if they know who Mike Bloomfield is and the answer is yes, then it's pretty self explanatory as to what precise business plan was put into motion. As a result of that ..kids want to learn how to play guitar like Eric Clapton because their parents encourage it and no one remembers Mike Bloomfield or Johnny Winter because they are chopped liver from the 60's. I can't relate to that. Mike Bloomfield and Johnny Winter were both schooled guitarists and very huge in the 60's. There is all this great value placed upon "In-a-Gadda-Da-Vida" , "White Rabbit" & "Somebody To Love", while kids will never understand the innovative musical value of an album like Crown Of Creation". The industry should have sincerely promoted the other half of the 60's ..which they black listed influencing kids from every generation thereafter to worship their contrived list.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2013 at 18:56
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Black lists were mainly designed to take attention away from certain innovative artists of the 60's and early 70's , replacing their popularity with a new list of innovative artists the industry picked out. So...let's say we were having a few glasses of wine..we could pick out all the artists the industry attempted to make less popular and all of the ones they decided to invest in. We could start by saying ...it's Eric Clapton instead of Mike Bloomfield, It's The Doors instead of Canned Heat and you could come up with a pretty convincing list. If you could travel in a time machine back to 67', and ask every hippie on the street corner if they know who Mike Bloomfield is and the answer is yes, then it's pretty self explanatory as to what precise business plan was put into motion. As a result of that ..kids want to learn how to play guitar like Eric Clapton because their parents encourage it and no one remembers Mike Bloomfield or Johnny Winter because they are chopped liver from the 60's. I can't relate to that. Mike Bloomfield and Johnny Winter were both schooled guitarists and very huge in the 60's.  

Funny you mention Clapton...my wife just asked me what I thought about him a couple days ago.  I told her that in the early days (Bluesbreakers/Yardbirds/Cream) he was totally awesome and there was a good reason for all that "Clapton is God" graffiti in London.  Then as he descended into heroin it seemed he lost the plot and started pumping out mediocre watered down rock that still became massive radio hits like I Shot the Sheriff & Cocaine.  He was still able to wheel out the awesome blues skills when necessary (Roger Waters Pro's and Con's of Hitchhiking), but for the most part he became so boring as to be un-listenable (to me anyway).  Besides Bloomfield & Johnny Winter, my fave blues player has always been Robin Trower.  Of course, none of those 3 ever achieved anything near the financial success and name recognition that Clapton enjoyed.  I wonder how much of that was due to "the machine" throwing all their cash and influence behind EC instead of the others?    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2013 at 19:16
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:


Funny you mention Clapton...my wife just asked me what I thought about him a couple days ago.  I told her that in the early days (Bluesbreakers/Yardbirds/Cream) he was totally awesome and there was a good reason for all that "Clapton is God" graffiti in London.  Then as he descended into heroin it seemed he lost the plot and started pumping out mediocre watered down rock that still became massive radio hits like I Shot the Sheriff & Cocaine.  He was still able to wheel out the awesome blues skills when necessary (Roger Waters Pro's and Con's of Hitchhiking), but for the most part he became so boring as to be un-listenable (to me anyway).  Besides Bloomfield & Johnny Winter, my fave blues player has always been Robin Trower.  Of course, none of those 3 ever achieved anything near the financial success and name recognition that Clapton enjoyed.  I wonder how much of that was due to "the machine" throwing all their cash and influence behind EC instead of the others?    


Hmmm...I would say that the Derek and the Dominos album transcended anything Clapton did with Mayall or Cream. Previous to Derek and the Dominos, Clapton merely mimicked his blues influences without really feeling the blues (although it was a scholarly mimicry), whereas the anguish on that album was palpable and he produced one of the greatest blues-rock releases ever, certainly better than The Bluesbreakers or Fresh Cream albums.

I would even hazard a mention of the oft-derided Blind Faith album which, besides the ridiculous hippie ramblings on the 15 minute "Do What You Like" (which to that album was like "Epping Forest" on SEbtP), was superb, particularly Clapton's contributions on "Sea of Joy" and "Presence of the Lord".


Edited by The Dark Elf - October 21 2013 at 19:22
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