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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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 Posted: July 06 2010 at 21:42 |
 JLocke wrote:
It doesn't matter what Atheism is to you. It's not a religion.
Atheism isn't something that needs to be proven. Don't you understand
that? Atheism is simply not believing in religion. We don't claim to
know that there is no God, and so no faith is required. I don't claim
anything; I just happen to trust facts over 2000-year-old myths. That
doesn't mean there is no god in some form. So, to 'prove Atheism' as
you say, it can be done quite easily. I can prove that I don't believe
in God (which is all Atheism is) by simply saying it: I don't believe
in God.
There. I just 'proved' Atheism.
This isn't tough stuff to understand.
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Well, it is to me. Suppose I'm just retarded. For the last time to clarify, not believing in a religion is something. So you can't say there is NO belief. As for it not needing to be proven, most people who believe in God say the same. Belief......there I proved it. Anyway I said IMHO so there. Unless my opinion is invalid now... This thread is way to closed minded for me PEACE MUTHAF*CKAS! .....Don't you understand that!? EDIT: Whoa! Doesn't matter what it means to me? It is NOT a religion. Because you impersonate a philosopher and me a race car driver I guess my OPINION is less valid then yours.
Edited by JJLehto - July 06 2010 at 21:49
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 21:44 |
JJLehto wrote:
Well, it is to me.
Suppose I'm just retarded.
For the last time to clarify, not believing in a religion is something. So you can't say there is NO belief. As for it not needing to be proven, most people who believe in God say the same.
Belief......there I proved it.
Anyway I said IMHO so there. Unless my opinion is invalid now...
This thread is way to closed minded for me PEACE MUTHAF*CKAS!
.....Don't you understand that!?
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. . . 
I'm confused.
Faith = belief in something without evidence.
Religion = rituals and lifestyles practiced surrounding that said faith.
Atheism = lack of of belief in anything without proof.
They are different things.
Edited by JLocke - July 06 2010 at 21:47
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 21:57 |
JJLehto wrote:
EDIT: Whoa! Doesn't matter what it means to me? It is NOT a religion. Because you impersonate a philosopher and me a race car driver I guess my OPINION is less valid then yours.
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. . .
You can't disprove God. But saying you can't prove Atheism makes no sense. Atheism is the opposite of Theism. Theism covers religions, and Atheism is . . . well, the opposite of that. So how could it be a religion, or something you have to 'believe' in, when it's not even in the same school of thought? You can't 'believe' in something that doesn't require faith. I don't 'believe' in gravity, I know for a fact that it exists. I don't 'believe' in Atheism, because Atheism is simply not believing in God. I know for a fact that I do not believe in God. I don't know for a fact that God isn't real, but Atheists don't claim that, either. If that's what you think, you've been misled.
I just spelled it out for you quite clearly in my last post. This isn't 'opinion', these are textbook definitions I'm laying out, here. I'm sorry if you think I'm saying anything condescending, but all I can do is sit and scratch my head when you come at me with exaggerated BIG WORDS and sarcasm as a response to me simply stating what Atheism is. If you can't grasp it, it's a sad day for you, I guess. But getting all freaked out because I corrected you on the definition of Atheism seems a little rash. I was the guy who defended your cartoon, remember? I wasn't even TRYING to provoke you.
Edited by JLocke - July 06 2010 at 22:05
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 21:59 |
DT-PT wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
A lot of atheists are really just trolling
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I don't see anyone trolling here.  |
No, I'm pretty sure I was.
Me wrote:
Generalizations help us to be able to talk about anything at all. It's
often true that the most pig-headed and vocal tend to represent the
whole, but that's why I predicated what I was talking about with "some"
atheists, or should have if I didn't. Point is, we all take it for
granted that there are outliers, but Dawkins, PZ Myers, Sam Harris, etc.
are all very vocal and inasmuch as there is an atheist movement now, I
do not regret taking them for the figureheads of it and responding to
them as the atheist movement. If I worry about the niggling details, I'd
have no time to troll this thread! |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 22:01 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
A person who has never experienced love might doubt that it exists. This person might run all sorts of scientific experiments and conclude that there is insufficient evidence for its existence. Alternatively, that person might look at the vast body of art, literature, music and poetry devoted to the subject, and the vast number of intelligent, sober-minded people who claim to have experienced it and conclude that there must be something to it.
I tend to fall into the latter category.
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What's love got to do with it?
Seriously, you can't really compare an emotion to a religion ... that's way beyond even comparing apples and oranges. Most importantly, the concept of love neither makes predictions about how the universe works, who created it and what happens after you die, nor does it establish a set of rules that you must adhere to in order to get into good standing with the creator.
Love is an intangible concept, while most religions contain narratives and detailed instructions and explanations about how the world works. If your belief doesn't contain any of that, it's most likely not Theistic and therefore not what I'm arguing against here.
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This is a fair point. My analogy was meant to be about the belief in a god, no the particulars of an organized religion, so in that sense I think they're comparable. I myself have always had difficulty understanding how someone comes to believe in minor and seemingly obscure points of theological doctrine. The best explanation for it that I've heard is from G. K. Chesterton (a great author whom you should all check out.) He said that he believes the teachings of the church for the same reason that he believed his father as a child. Through his past experience, he has found it to be a truth-telling organism, and so he believes even the bits which he cannot verify. To be clear, I am not arguing in favor of any organized religion, but I do think there's a reasonably good chance of there being some sort of god.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 22:23 |
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is it settled? Page 10
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 22:24 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
There's a point when the deluge of atheism v. religion topics on a forum more resembles proselytizing than mere discussion. I think we passed that point 2 years ago. I could be wrong, but it seems like it really irritates Mike that people actually are religious. Even with all this science around us! SO MUCH SCIENCE. Of course atheists want to distance themselves from religion as much as possible, so saying tons of atheists want to "convert" people is likely to get a lot of angry "Hey now!"s. But so freaking many of them do. It's plainly obvious. I think it's curious too, because it's a passive aggressive sort of converting. "Hey religious guy, now you're sure free to believe what you want to believe, but have you heard about science? I mean it's totally in your rights to believe what you want, but I mean it's obvious to anyone using their sense that science is The Way and The Light." That last part might not happen IRL, but the meaning is the same.
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It's funny how people will interpret these things into your posts.
I'm with AronRa on this ... I'm not interested in "converting" anyone. It's a damn shame that we even need a word for the lack of belief in god(s). Hey, I also happen to not believe in alchemy, astrology or homeopathy. Big damn deal.
Here's my question to all the Atheists who are criticizing me here: Why are you blowing this way out of proportion, exaggerating any point I make to the extreme? If you want to keep your Atheism to yourself and leave the floor to the religious people - fine, but please don't demand that I do the same.
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I was mostly addressing the general New Atheist movement with my post, but if you subscribe to that approach to dialog between theists and atheists then it applies as well. This specifically addressed you though: "I could be wrong, but it seems like it really irritates Mike that
people actually are religious." This is an honest impression, not an attack. It's usually interesting in all matters to understand how other people see your actions. Maybe I'm not representing what you think you're doing in your mind through your actions, and maybe you want to try to convince me that you don't think the way I perceive you on the topic. It doesn't matter, really. None of it was an attack.
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DisgruntledPorcupine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 22:24 |
^
It'll NEVER be settled.  Edit: Meant for Padraic.
Edited by DT-PT - July 06 2010 at 22:25
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 22:34 |
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there's a deer god? cool
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 22:35 |
Atavachron wrote:
there's a deer god? cool
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boy is he pissed at my wife's uncle
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 23:14 |
What I Believe
by
manofmystery
He's not the God, but he's a God.
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 Time always wins.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 23:40 |
Atavachron wrote:
there's a deer god? cool
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I always thought God liked goats better...
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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Posted: July 06 2010 at 23:45 |
The T wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
there's a deer god? cool
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I always thought God liked goats better... |
I thought that was Trve Kvlt Norvegian Black Metal bands who like goats dead goats.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 00:22 |
stonebeard wrote:
This specifically addressed you though: "I could be wrong, but it seems like it really irritates Mike that people actually are religious."
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Lately I read comments like "I'm offended by the believe in God" by representative atheists or people like Mike who really get angry with our beliefs and enjoy commenting how delusional we are....And hey, we must thank them.
I wouldn't be writing on a religious thread if there wasn't so much opposition and reject against us, people who would normally be Sunday Christians or Sabbath Jews, start to care more about their religion, because if there's something that makes people react, is somebody trying to destroy our beliefs.
As a fact, my first participation in a religious thread, was to criticize a lunatic who wrote a huge list of artists that according to him were satanic, a list that included Pink Floyd, Genesis and Jethro Tull, now, I'm taking the defence of my beliefs thanks to guys like Mike.
Yes I know atheism is not a religion, but I find very little differences between the TV-Evangelist who tries to convince us his vision of God is the correct and the atheists that spend millions in a campaign to tell us that we can't believe in God.
Even people like Theo, who are closer to Mike's beliefs, take sides with us, not in our beliefs, but in the defence of our rights to belief, this people don't know that their radical position is as rejected as the one from a fundamentalist.
But...It's their problem, they won't do anything but make our beliefs even stronger, and that's good for us.
Iván
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 01:33 |
JJLehto wrote:
Fine. To me it is. You can't prove atheism, no matter how much they will fight you on it...you cant prove it. And even better, tell an atheist their belief is based on faith. Because it is. You can apply all the logic and rationale you want, atheism is a belief that is ultimately based on faith. At least IMHO.
I mean you don't believe in God, that;s something. To have NO belief...i guess you have to be a rock, or braindead.
And on THAT note, I bid you farewell.
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First you make a cartoon that isn't really funny ... and I'm not saying this because I can't laugh when the joke is on me, but because you're drawing (pun intended) a fairly specious analogy. And then you continue along the trodden paths of stupid arguments with perhaps the most ridiculous argument there is: Atheism requires as as much faith as any religious belief. Does it require faith to doubt that Jesus was born of a virgin? Keep in mind that not even all of the four Gospels are clear on that. But what do I know ... I'm braindead.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 01:49 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
This specifically addressed you though: "I could be wrong, but it seems like it really irritates Mike that people actually are religious."
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Lately I read comments like "I'm offended by the believe in God" by representative atheists or people like Mike who really get angry with our beliefs and enjoy commenting how delusional we are....And hey, we must thank them.
I wouldn't be writing on a religious thread if there wasn't so much opposition and reject against us, people who would normally be Sunday Christians or Sabbath Jews, start to care more about their religion, because if there's something that makes people react, is somebody trying to destroy our beliefs.
As a fact, my first participation in a religious thread, was to criticize a lunatic who wrote a huge list of artists that according to him were satanic, a list that included Pink Floyd, Genesis and Jethro Tull, now, I'm taking the defence of my beliefs thanks to guys like Mike.
Yes I know atheism is not a religion, but I find very little differences between the TV-Evangelist who tries to convince us his vision of God is the correct and the atheists that spend millions in a campaign to tell us that we can't believe in God.
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1. I'm not angry - please don't infer that I am just because I'm opposing someone's view.
2. The difference between atheists and tv-evangelists is that the latter are *asking* for money, and that they ask the viewers to believe their claims on a faith basis, rather than thinking for themselves ("Jesus is our lord and savior - take our word for it, and never mind those Hindus, Mormons, Jews or Muslims").
Ivan wrote:
Even people like Theo, who are closer to Mike's beliefs, take sides with us, not in our beliefs, but in the defence of our rights to belief, this people don't know that their radical position is as rejected as the one from a fundamentalist.
But...It's their problem, they won't do anything but make our beliefs even stronger, and that's good for us.
Iván |
Your belief is rooted deeply - and a common reaction when someone's core belief is questioned is to become more fundamentalist about it. I don't think that there's anything I could do or say to change your belief - so I'm not even trying to do that. I simply state my beliefs and opinions, and if they provoke such a strong reaction in you, then maybe you should think about why that is so.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 02:10 |
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? THIS BICKERING IS TEARING US APART!
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
First you make a cartoon that isn't really funny ... and I'm not saying this because I can't laugh when the joke is on me, but because you're drawing (pun intended) a fairly specious analogy. And then you continue along the trodden paths of stupid arguments with perhaps the most ridiculous argument there is: Atheism requires as as much faith as any religious belief.
Does it require faith to doubt that Jesus was born of a virgin? Keep in mind that not even all of the four Gospels are clear on that.
But what do I know ... I'm braindead.
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I'm 80% certain he got that from 4chan and you really shouldn't try to logically argue it.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 02:18 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
I'm 80% certain he got that from 4chan and you really shouldn't try to logically argue it. |
Trollface kind of gives it away doesn't it?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 02:49 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? THIS BICKERING IS TEARING US APART!
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
First you make a cartoon that isn't really funny ... and I'm not saying this because I can't laugh when the joke is on me, but because you're drawing (pun intended) a fairly specious analogy. And then you continue along the trodden paths of stupid arguments with perhaps the most ridiculous argument there is: Atheism requires as as much faith as any religious belief.
Does it require faith to doubt that Jesus was born of a virgin? Keep in mind that not even all of the four Gospels are clear on that.
But what do I know ... I'm braindead.
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I'm 80% certain he got that from 4chan and you really shouldn't try to logically argue it. |
And Henry with the voice of reason!  And I thought people would know my dickery by now. Though I must say, the trolling of this thread has been wonderful. Cant back out of it either...got yall. Sans Henry and Matt.
Edited by JJLehto - July 07 2010 at 02:49
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 07 2010 at 02:56 |
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And man, you can argue semantics with me all you want.
X means Y, Z means Q it is fact not opinion...
Bottom line: Atheism can't be proven. I've talked long with people about it, eventually answers end it comes down something like "I just think/believe/know so" you can call it whatever the f*ck you want. To me its faith. Not biblical but literal....you are taking it on FAITH, with some evidence to guide you granted.
And about atheism not needing to be proven, I dont see the point. If anything helps me more.
Christians claim it is, proof not needed.
Are you saying the same?
Fine, I used terms like "religion" and "faith" to stir yall up, but I think its true. And since it can not be proven, it is our opinions. Though according to 2 people here my opinion is invalid/wrong.
I love how I'm coming across as this radical guy now even though I am probably 80% if not more, closer to an atheist then Christian.
Whatever, tl;dr disregard all that I sucks! lol!
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Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
