Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

Like in certain areas of the world where "munch munch munch" is the national pastime . BTW,  Kill the Juice is maybe a reference to O J  Simpson? and they took the wrong sign to the wrong demonstration? Another case of mistaken identity  LOL

no problem John ... message was delivered 

manofmystery wrote: Blacksword wrote: manofmystery wrote: Is there somewhere I can sign up in support of Israel's actions?  Always lovely to see so many people played for saps by the palestinian use of the media.  Those Israeli's are soooo mean, their such bullies, we can send kid after kid strapped with explosives at them but if they try to put an end to it by using force there'll be an uproar.  One side straps their children with explosives and sends them out into crowded squares and when the other side responds with their military that's seen as crossing a line.  Is there any sanity left in this world or will anything be tolerated?  Grow a pair people and learn to mind your own damn business about affairs you know little about, the least educated people on this subject are the ones who follow media coverage, or college professors, like sheep.  Blindly supporting the palestinian side doesn't make you compassionate or progressive it just makes you another blind sheep heading toward their eventual slaughter. The only way this will ever end is through victory because the Arab world will never recognize Israel's right to exist. Everytime you cast a vote in an election in the US (or UK for that matter), be it for the Democrats or the Republicans, you are pledging support for Israel, and granting the elected government a mandate to write endless blank cheques for the Israeli war machine. I wouldn't feel too bad for Israel if I were you. They have lost 15 lives so far in this conflict, which of course is terrible, but over 1000 Palestinians have been killed, and much of Gaza doesn't have water, medical supplies or electricity, and the streets are literally awash with blood. Not the blood of those firing the rockets at Israel, but the blood of those who simply want to live their lives in peace. There is force, and there is FORCE. This level of force will achieve nothing, but a re-grouping of Hamas and a bolsetring of their resolve to destroy Israel.   So, what's this, a new news story with a nice round number comes out and you blindly trust it as accurate.  I believe this sheep like behavior was one of the first things I covered.  Happened to find some of these unabashedly one-sided articles that I assume you've read to find your numbers and, what do you know, they are presented in the exact way I said they'd be.  All lean on the word of "Gaza medics" (no need backing up a source like that) and all come with your standard pictures of crumbled buildings and people in slings.  I have to admit the "the streets are literally awash with blood" was a nice touch but I wonder how I missed the picture of rivers of blood that literally awash the street.  Hope they have boats.  Also enjoy your use of the buzz word "war machine", real evidence of some free thinking there.  But to answer point by point: - If the US government wants to aid an ally, that finds themself under constant attack, I would rather they do it by selling them technology than provide monetary aid myself.  I, personally, have a problem with my governments use of taxpayer money for anything outside of defense and infrastructure.  The Israeli "war machine" (as you like to put it) is one of the most advanced and well trained units in the world with or without US funding. - I do feel bad for Israelis as I would for any people facing the constant terrorism that they do.  I understand that classic group think has trained you to look at this as simply two sides but I'm guessing that most Israelis blown up in in public squares are not fully armed war criminals (call me crazy).  I asked you to view this as an average citizen, an individual not involved in government policy, and obviously you chose not to. As a matter of fact you didn't even bother to read my second post on this subject, did you, because you found it a lot easier to attack  my earlier, much less clear and more emotional, post. - You have fallen into the completely illogical view that responding to force with superior force is somehow immoral.  I ask you: if a man runs at you with a knife and you hold in one hand a gun and the other a knife do you take the risk of being stabbed to death just to even out the field?  If you are honest, and have any inclination towards self preservation , you will make the decision that ensures your survival.  Actually, it can be argued that the fact Hamas wears no uniform and uses tactics unspeakable in the western world evens the playing field. - This level of force will achieve something if it is allowed to continue untill they reach the stated goals of Killing Hamas leaders and destroying the tunnels which Hamas uses to smuggle in arms.  Sure, someone can always replace a leader but it will be harder for them to operate without weapons.  Only by destroying the terrorist organizations ability to operate within Gaza will the bombings stop.  One side must win for anything resembling peace to be established and I have a major problem with people siding with those who have the stated goal of "driving the Jews into the sea".  It boggles my mind that so many are able to eat up, with complete trust, every biased media report and every two-faced claim to want peace from palestinian leadership yet when the government of the nation of Israel makes an attempt to end the bombings nobody trusts their intentions.  Israeli citizens are the victimized simply because they aren't muslims yet nobody cries "hate crime" here.  No no, Jews are no minority, not in the middle east.  Face it, there is only one side here that is fighting for their right to exist, the Israelis do not seek to extinguish all life in Gaza, there target is Hamas.  And, by the way, Hamas does seek to extinguish all non-muslim life is Israel (and the rest of the world for the matter). And saying "of course its terrible" that Israel has lost lives in this current conflict doesn't change the fact that you are basically saying that its unfair less of them have died.

Well, that's your perspective and you're entitled to it. It simply depends where your sympathies lie, I guess. Media reports will always have a slant, depending on what politcial afilliation they have. Why would you trust Israeli media over anyone elses? They have an agenda, just as the Palestinains do. In any case, I did say over 'over' 1000 had died in Gaza, and I never claimed it was an acurate figure.

If the Israelis let foreign reporters into Gaza, and stopped bombing UN operatives on the ground, these figures may be more accurate. I guess foreign media is blocked from Gaza as the Israelis dont want us to see the extent of their carnage. There is evidence from UN personel that Israel are NOT always targetting Hamas fighters, but are bombing UN buildings where there are said to be NO militants.

This IS a dissproportionate response in my view, and in the view of many around the world. To argue that Israel have a moral case to hit Hamas with such force is one thing, but it seems they are conducting a program of mass murder, yes, taking out as many Hamas militants they can, but also killing as many Palesinians on the periphery, and not losing much sleep over it either.

Anyway, it seems some progress has been made around the table in Egypt, so lets hope all these &rseholes lay down their guns soon.

tszirmay wrote:   Your style of "dicing" is very clear, and easy to fulfill, as you use Red argument fonts to slice up chosen black font comments that I have made. Perhaps I've somehow miscommunicated or you've misunderstood my point--it's not unlikely that it's both.  Still, I think that my style of commentary is not uncommon on the internet, and I do take care to leave things in context, etc.  Not really interested in winning arguments, especially if done dishonestly; rather I'm interested in bringing to light certain facts and calling out fallacies, when and if they occur.  Of course, I'm hardly infallible, and I'm ready to accept a similar critique--in fact, I hope for one. As far as accusatory judgement, yoiu stated that I was "intellectually bankrupt", to which I answer : How dare you ACCUSE me of that. Not really an answer.  Again I stand by my statement.  You used loaded statements.  That is dishonest.  No more to be said about it. While you obviously possess some knowledge , you can't see beyond your own rethoric, as some have commented, you make yourself look like an brute idiot. And calling me a "brute idiot" while complaining about my critque of your reasoning isn't "accusatory judgment"?  A convenient moral principle, if not anything else. It has become very obvious that you have decided to attack my persona and intellect instead of the content which I try to vehiculate. No, it's not obvious.  Again I requested that you provide evidence (quotes with their intended meaning respected, etc.) to support your claims.  Despite how easy this should be, you've failed to do it.  I'll refrain from comment on why and let others judge for themselves. You have no right at all to demean the value of anyone's education, opinion, upbringing or pass any judgement on it, I haven't done any of the things of which you've accused me, with perhaps the exception of criticising your opinion.  Incidentally, though, do you not realize that you're effectively criticising my opinion, indeed passing judgment on it?  By asserting that I have no right to "pass any judgement" you're basically suggesting that my opinion is invalid.  I have no problem with that conclusion--my opinion may, in fact, be wrong--but it's dishonest to not apply the same standard to yourself.  Is not universality the most rudimentary moral principle?  Apparently, everyone's entitled to his opinion except the person who objects to that entitlement. Who annointed you with such rights? Yourself , of course, being a "professional" evaluator. Sound and valid arguments are made credible only by the manner in which they are expressed. In a sense that is true insofar that an argument is evaluated structurally and is thus dependent on how its expressed, but tone has no bearing on whether an argument is sound or valid.  Recall: we say that an argument is valid if and only if its conclusion is true whenever its premises are true, and that an argument is sound if and only if the argument is valid and its premises are true. In any case, I'd rather not derail this otherwise interesting, intelligent, and important thread for such minutiae, and so our personal argument ends here.

Edited by WinterLight - January 17 2009 at 11:02

tszirmay wrote: I say, create specific warrior zones , let the Israelis retreat (again) and permit the Palestinian militants to resume rocket bombing the Israeli militants and then all will be okay . BTW, America was also created by europeans for europeans.  Some of the most virulent , one -sided people on this thread have obviously never been to either Israel or one of its arab neighbors! If they would, they would notice that all is not quite the way it seems. There are Arabs all over Isreal (pre-1967 borders) , in fact 40% of the population is arab. I have seen arab, christian and jews living, talking, laughing and (of course the region's national sport= arguing) but I have never seen similar examples of religious compromise (except maybe in Egypt ) in Arab countries (that once had oppressed jewish populations).  I  sarcastically wonder when are the Israelis going to use nuclear weapons , since their alleged goal is the genocide of the Palistinian people. Perhaps they will start with their own Arab citizens!  Any way, there are no right and wrong sides in any eternal conflict because who the hell knows who started all this in the first place (it certainly wasn't the Balfour declaration) , more than 6 thousand years ago! Sad as it is , humans are the worst animals. Note that humans have multiple ethnicities. Time for Klaatu to show up !

Feel ... need ... to ... listen ... to ... Klaatu's ... HOPE
ALL IS LOST IF ONE ABANDONS HOPE.

and there must be some Israelis & Palestinians in there somewhere who still have Hope that both can leave in peace, side by side.
My opinion, though, is that Hamas would quickly eliminate any such line of thinking if it were to appear in their little corner of the world.

^ duplicate post deleted

Er, if we asked the Hamas leadership how many deaths that they are or were willing to suffer while firing rockets to kill Israelis ? What would they give, a ratio of 100 Palestinians for every Israeli, 200 ?
Is there any reason why Hamas could reasonably expect Israel, or any nation for that matter, to keep the killing to a 1 for 1 basis ? Really, at what point does drawing your opponent's fire exclude you from being blamed for bringing it upon yourself ?
And as for the treatment of Arabs inside Israel ... are we comparing their lot in life to the way that the Arab governments treat their own  citizens ? And if we do, does Israel come out on top ?
Or for further discussion - please describe the reception that any anti-government or Pro-peace movement receives in countries like Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia ... and yes, the Hamas, AND Palestinian Authority ...
Somehow, Israel's transgressions seem minor. They would be considered unacceptable in most western countries, but then we're not under constant threat from armed people who constantly declare their intent to destroy , to completely rid the region of any trace of your country .

So let's all get together and pray for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Mohamed to return and settle this thing once & for all. 'Cause there's a lot of people in that corner of the world who are fanatic believers that the Supreme Being is on their side.
AND that is very dangerous.

stonebeard wrote: debrewguy wrote: So let's all get together and pray for the God of Abraham, Moses, and Mohamed to return and settle this thing once & for all. 'Cause there's a lot of people in that corner of the world who are fanatic believers that the Supreme Being is on their side. AND that is very dangerous. *SPOILERS* They're not coming.

Not until the sequel, which is supposed to be coming out soon and has gotten rave reviews from Ebert & Roeper.

"Sitting on the fence is a dangerous course,

I haven't read the whole thread down but have given it a good scan. The Israelis have an international right to defend themselves.

Edited by Vibrationbaby - January 18 2009 at 02:54