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Topic ClosedAre you stubborn about the genre changes?
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Poll Question: Regarding new categories (crossover prog, etc)
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bhikkhu View Drop Down
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 14:53
Originally posted by prog-chick prog-chick wrote:

Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all subjective. However, this is a database. In order to make it navigable, there must be a structure. So these discussions are necessary.

 

It only works if every user has an understanding of what on earth you are talking about, when I first found PA I had NO IDEA what all these genres were, (I still don't in regard to many of them) I certainly had not heard the term NEO prog before, despite having cd racks groaning with stuff apparently from the genre.

 

What if a band has half an album that sounds neo and half that sounds symphonic, what if their next album gets all a bit metal or something?

 

Just think ,if you put them into boxes, do you expect them to stay there? and is that why some many folk don't like the new album by 'x' band, because a change of direction, a new musical thought has them in an opposing box?

 

at this rate each band will either make just one album, or (and some bands do do this and it makes me weep) just quite simply make the same album over, and over and over again......... just so they fit in the box.

 

 


O.K. So we eliminate all of the sub-genres, and just have everything listed alphabetically. That will make it easier to find the kind of music you are looking for.

a.k.a. H.T.

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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 17:50
Originally posted by prog-chick prog-chick wrote:

 
It only works if every user has an understanding of what on earth you are talking about, when I first found PA I had NO IDEA what all these genres were, (I still don't in regard to many of them) I certainly had not heard the term NEO prog before, despite having cd racks groaning with stuff apparently from the genre.
 
 
Obviously having racks of CD's is not enough.
  1. Neo Prog is probably the best known Prog related term after Symphonic, Edward Macan's "Rocking the Classics" published in 1996 has a whole chapter about Neo Prog,
  2. Martin Offord says that the term was coined in USA around 1982.
  3. All the official sites of bands like Marillion, Pendragon or Jadis to mention a few, talk about Neo Prog, most of them don't like the term because of the negative connotation it has gained by people who never passed the 70's.
  4. All the existing Prog sites including:
    • Prog Archives
    • Progressive Ears
    • Progressor
    • GEPR (Gibraltar)
    • Progressive World Net
    • Proggnosis
    • DPRP.......To mention the most important and reliable, mention and/or describe Neo Prog in some place.
  5. There's even a website called "The Neo Progressive Home" http://adjensen.aatrix.com/NeoProgHome.html
  6. All the major labels selll the Neo Prog albums with the tag Neo Prog in the publicity page, for example Musea says about Script for a Jester's Tear
  7. Even Wikipedia has a lot of articles about neo Prog or that mention it, for example.
So, sincerely, I don't know where have you been for the last 20 years (at least) if you haven't heard the term Neo Prog.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 03 2007 at 18:03
            
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 19:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

Prog Chick, the bands make music, the sites and the critic makes the structures, in this moment we are the N° 1 site, so we make the structure of our site.

 

For example in the case of Symphonic we coined the term 90's Symphonic

............................................................

 
Geek..................
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
oops sorry fell asleep..........
 
 
 
 
 
Confused this is lucdicrus!


Edited by prog-chick - November 03 2007 at 19:03
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 20:11
Originally posted by prog-chick prog-chick wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

Prog Chick, the bands make music, the sites and the critic makes the structures, in this moment we are the N° 1 site, so we make the structure of our site.

 

For example in the case of Symphonic we coined the term 90's Symphonic

............................................................

 
Geek..................
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
oops sorry fell asleep..........
 
 
 
 
 
Confused this is lucdicrus!
 
Probably you also fell asleep the last 20 years Wink
 
If you feel the urge to criticize those who work for the site for free, the least you could do is read what they answer to your criticism.
 
Iván
 
BTW: Nice geek smiley, probably you're too cool for this.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 03 2007 at 20:47
            
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 20:14
hahahhahah....   I need some popcorn, you can't beat this for entertainment...  isn't Prog-Chick married to some dude from a Neo group... 



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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 20:30
Let's get back to basics:

Fans of music and critics usually come up with names to categorize movements in music that seem to be distinct, or have some sort of inter-community, or both. This is done because the people categorizing them like doing so and it's helpful to newbies. There may be other more selfish/whatever reasons. Now it seems the musicians being categorized together may or may not like it. They probably don't like being limited in any way whatever the case. They can do whatever they want, maybe taking left turn musically in response to this categorization. No matter, the organizers will amend the genre they belong in, remove them from it, or do something else to make them fit. This is the natural way of things. Critics and fans don' t categorize musicians for musicians' sake, they do it to have a sense of accomplishment and to help out newbies.

Can we at least all agree on this?


Edited by stonebeard - November 03 2007 at 20:35
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 20:30
I went into  the audience when this thread lost any semblance of meaning... like 5 pages ago LOL

We didn't need this thread to show who was the most stubborn here at PA's hahahha. 

but it is entertaining as all hell


Edited by micky - November 03 2007 at 20:33
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 20:33
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

I went into  the audience when this thread lost any semblance of meaning... like 5 pages ago LOL

We didn't need this thread to show how was the most stubborn here at PA's hahahha. 
 
LOL, I'm stubborn I know, but i don't gfet why in hell the Neo Prog issue was brought here in a post when this was about Prog Metal.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 20:36
me either.... so I just munch away on the popcorn  and wonder if you can get away by the end of the thread all  the townpeople surrounding  your home with torches and pitchforks...LOL

at least I didn't have have to pay $8.50 for a ticket  hahahhah Wink
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:11
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

^ ok, how about this:
 
Neo Prog goes wherever Symphonic goes, we keep Progressive Rock as it is and you do whatever you want with Prog Metal. LOL
 
Noww seriously...Why keep inventing?

I simply responded to your posts. I don't want to change anything about the way Neo Prog is listed here. We made our PM split, and that's about it ... there is no hidden agenda to change any of the other genres.
 
There's nothing called Classic Progressive Rock, why Neo Prog apart and not RIO or Post Rock.

Of course as soon as you would separate Neo Prog from the classic prog rock movement you could also separate RIO ... and Post Rock is a thing of its own anyway, that's a given. But please remember that what I've posted here about how a hierarchical view of all Prog genre could look like represents my own opinion only. I stand by it, but it is not related to PA (or possible future changes of the website) in any way.
 
Leave the things how they are, they have worked for the site, it's clear (Or at least it was until we found three sub-genres almost repeated.
 
That's done, but the structure we have is clear enough, we don't need  to invent new things because an obsession of over tagging.
 
My two cents.

Iván

Are your Symphonic Prog Schools that much different? From what I've seen they're even much more narrow than what we're currently trying to do in the definitions of the three new PM categories ...
 
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:14
munch munch munch.... sip.... *belch*
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:19
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Let's get back to basics:

Fans of music and critics usually come up with names to categorize movements in music that seem to be distinct, or have some sort of inter-community, or both. This is done because the people categorizing them like doing so and it's helpful to newbies. There may be other more selfish/whatever reasons. Now it seems the musicians being categorized together may or may not like it. They probably don't like being limited in any way whatever the case. They can do whatever they want, maybe taking left turn musically in response to this categorization. No matter, the organizers will amend the genre they belong in, remove them from it, or do something else to make them fit. This is the natural way of things. Critics and fans don' t categorize musicians for musicians' sake, they do it to have a sense of accomplishment and to help out newbies.
I know from (bitter) experience that life can very difficult for a band once it has been categorised. Once a band has been pigeon-holed into a subgenre it is very difficult to move on: being stuck in a subgenre limits your potential audience, it can also be difficult to get the right gigs if all the promoters remember is the early stuff.
 
Take Anathema for example, they are still regarded as a Metal band, (and as a Doom Metal band by some cloth-eared hacks in the music press), even though they haven't recorded a Metal album in years (or a Doom Metal album since Darren White left).
 
People don't like change. They never have and they never will, anything that takes them out of their comfort-zone and alters their view of the world will be resisted. In general you have to change their mind-set before you can make anyother kind of change.
 
Even under the banner of "Progressive" people complain when a band makes a radical departure from the "safe" ground - and those people are probably the same people who would complain if the same band produced an album that was exactly like the previous one. To them change is only accpetable if it is a small change, one that is natural and logical, and that is wrong.
 
What?
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:22
^
* the prince rides in on his white  horse.. .telling the terrifiied and shell shocket townspeople that the time of deliverence is upon them*

the audience cheers....  

munch.. munch ...munch....
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:22
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Let's get back to basics:

Fans of music and critics usually come up with names to categorize movements in music that seem to be distinct, or have some sort of inter-community, or both. This is done because the people categorizing them like doing so and it's helpful to newbies. There may be other more selfish/whatever reasons. Now it seems the musicians being categorized together may or may not like it. They probably don't like being limited in any way whatever the case. They can do whatever they want, maybe taking left turn musically in response to this categorization. No matter, the organizers will amend the genre they belong in, remove them from it, or do something else to make them fit. This is the natural way of things. Critics and fans don' t categorize musicians for musicians' sake, they do it to have a sense of accomplishment and to help out newbies.

Can we at least all agree on this?


Sure. But why should musicians feel limited by these categorisations? I mean, if Yes are categorized as Symphonic, it doesn't imply that they're only that and nothing else.

I think this is very important to keep in mind when looking at any categorisation ... it's only a rule of thumb, a suggestion of how to group a number of artists or albums. It's like saying that "x has something in common with y", not "x is the same as y".
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:24
^  * the evil villians right hand man looks down upon the village from the window and says.. .HAH!!!!!....  we won't leave quietly and without a fight*


the audience boos

munch .. munch ...munch...
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:24
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Let's get back to basics:

Fans of music and critics usually come up with names to categorize movements in music that seem to be distinct, or have some sort of inter-community, or both. This is done because the people categorizing them like doing so and it's helpful to newbies. There may be other more selfish/whatever reasons. Now it seems the musicians being categorized together may or may not like it. They probably don't like being limited in any way whatever the case. They can do whatever they want, maybe taking left turn musically in response to this categorization. No matter, the organizers will amend the genre they belong in, remove them from it, or do something else to make them fit. This is the natural way of things. Critics and fans don' t categorize musicians for musicians' sake, they do it to have a sense of accomplishment and to help out newbies.

Can we at least all agree on this?


well actually that may not always be the case-- I saw Sleeping People recently and asked the rhythm guitar player how he felt about 'prog' and 'math rock' and being thought of as a part of those styles..  he was quite at ease with the terms and seemed hip to the communities that accept the band's music, reasonably happy to be included in such things as PA, etc.  Musicians may want to be liberated from styles themselves, but many don't mind being classed as something.. I don't remember the metal players that I was road crewing for in the 80s disliking the term 'metal' at all, on the contrary
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:26
^ * the evil villian calles in reinforcements*

the audience shrieks in horror LOL

munch.. munch ...munch...
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:30
LOL
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:31
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

LOL




you got cast as a villian once the casting department saw your pic... and got jealous LOL
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2007 at 21:36
Originally posted by darqdean darqdean wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Let's get back to basics:

Fans of music and critics usually come up with names to categorize movements in music that seem to be distinct, or have some sort of inter-community, or both. This is done because the people categorizing them like doing so and it's helpful to newbies. There may be other more selfish/whatever reasons. Now it seems the musicians being categorized together may or may not like it. They probably don't like being limited in any way whatever the case. They can do whatever they want, maybe taking left turn musically in response to this categorization. No matter, the organizers will amend the genre they belong in, remove them from it, or do something else to make them fit. This is the natural way of things. Critics and fans don' t categorize musicians for musicians' sake, they do it to have a sense of accomplishment and to help out newbies.
I know from (bitter) experience that life can very difficult for a band once it has been categorised. Once a band has been pigeon-holed into a subgenre it is very difficult to move on: being stuck in a subgenre limits your potential audience, it can also be difficult to get the right gigs if all the promoters remember is the early stuff.
 
Take Anathema for example, they are still regarded as a Metal band, (and as a Doom Metal band by some cloth-eared hacks in the music press), even though they haven't recorded a Metal album in years (or a Doom Metal album since Darren White left).
 
People don't like change. They never have and they never will, anything that takes them out of their comfort-zone and alters their view of the world will be resisted. In general you have to change their mind-set before you can make anyother kind of change.
 
Even under the banner of "Progressive" people complain when a band makes a radical departure from the "safe" ground - and those people are probably the same people who would complain if the same band produced an album that was exactly like the previous one. To them change is only accpetable if it is a small change, one that is natural and logical, and that is wrong.
 


I *love* change. And once you see genres as something applied to albums rather than bands they're not really a limiting factor anymore. Smile
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